Caitlin Kindred: 0:27

Flying by the seat of our pants for most things, including the thing that we claim to be professional at, which is podcasting. I've been doing this now for four, I don't know how many years Four, anyway, hi guys, it's the first. Yeah, I think so. Well, this is the first episode of season five.

Ariella Monti: 0:47

Yeah.

Caitlin Kindred: 0:49

So Damn Time blindness. I know Time blindness. I know Time blindness is real. Also, by the way, if someone says to me 10 or 15 years ago, I immediately retreat to the 90s. So like I have no concept of time.

Ariella Monti: 1:05

Right.

Caitlin Kindred: 1:05

Like, oh my gosh. Anyway, guys, it's the first episode of season five. Can you even believe it? We're so glad you're here If you've stuck with us for this long. Thank you, wow, it's just wow. This is how to be a grown up. This is the how to show for any woman who's ever said my meds just kicked in and I am dangerously productive right now Happens sometimes. Dangerously productive right now, um, happens sometimes. We've got Ariella Monti here novelist and sparkling fountain of wisdom and glitter.

Caitlin Kindred: 1:42

Oh, here she is yeah, yeah, here she is. Today we're talking about ADHD and money Very dangerous topic specifically like financial challenges that we have and then how to kind of overcome these financial challenges, because Lord knows that impulsivity when it comes to money is rough. So before we do that, though, in honor of our fifth season beginner opener whatever that word is please make sure you're subscribed to this show. Hit, subscribe, hit, follow, do whatever it is you need to do on your favorite podcast apps that you don't miss an episode, you know, whatever, because you don't want to be left out. No, fomo is real, and this is the kind of FOMO where it's like you don't even have to RSVP and then feel like you want to back out. You don't even have to be flaky about it Right.

Caitlin Kindred: 2:44

Exactly, that's my favorite, kind of like JOMO, like joy of missing out, and I'm like, yeah, that sounded fun when I said, yes, you know three weeks ago, but now I just want to stay in my bed and my pajamas. So you don't have to worry about that with this, you can just like hit subscribe and then listen when it's convenient for you, right?

Ariella Monti: 3:03

Exactly, it's amazing, exactly.

Caitlin Kindred: 3:06

Okay, so teach me about my issues with money, because I have that. So teach me about my issues with money, because I have that, because Amazon. There's a reason Jenny's not allowed to have an Amazon account anymore and there's a reason that I push all my orders to one day of the week because it's rough.

Ariella Monti: 3:22

Those are the kinds of things that we'll talk about today. But all of the disclaimers, because I am not at all qualified, either academically or professionally, to give financial advice. Oh my God, can you imagine? No, I, in grad school, I took one accounting class and I got a C in it.

Caitlin Kindred: 3:43

So, yeah, well done. I know, yeah, I know you're anti-math in general, so you getting a C, I'm actually quite impressed. Good job, quite impressed, good job, right, right exactly.

Ariella Monti: 3:53

I had to work hard for that c. It's the only c I got in grad school. All right, I'm just. I'm thinking about all the money I spent on grad school for that c and just to have my, just to get that obsolete degree in publishing okay, so oh my gosh.

Ariella Monti: 4:11

So this I just need everyone to know that this is just a primer on why people with ADHD tend to struggle with their finances. I have been struggling with managing money since I was getting an allowance from my parents. When I was using that allowance to buy Tiger Beat magazines to rip pictures of Jonathan Taylor Thomas and Devin Sawa and put them on my walls.

Caitlin Kindred: 4:38

Oh, good choices though.

Ariella Monti: 4:41

Excellent, excellent choices Of course, exactly, devin Sawa.

Caitlin Kindred: 4:45

If you're listening, you're still 13-year-old, me's ideal, anyway, anyway, okay my husband kind of looks like a comment of mine. Yeah, he does. Yeah, he like. He like looks for. I don't know if he looks for it or if he like actually pays attention, but if you mention him he will respond in a lot of situations.

Ariella Monti: 5:06

it's pretty funny like my 12 year old self died when he liked a comment of mine and I was like oh my God, oh my goodness, my life is complete, yeah, right. Like that's it, I'm good.

Caitlin Kindred: 5:21

Yeah, between that and my like, lisa Loeb tweet like that's it, oh yeah. It's done. It's done. That would make me so happy. I'm over. It's finished. Nothing else to say. Okay, so Devon Sala magazines.

Ariella Monti: 5:53

Right, so that's what I was blowing my money on when I was blowing my allowance on back in the 90s and a lot of financial information is written by and for people with a certain amount of financial privilege, and how ADHD intersects with finances is just one part of an extremely nuanced conversation about money. I am acknowledging that those pieces exist and today we're just going to focus on this one tiny part of it because, to circle back, I got a C in accounting and I am not professionally or academically qualified to talk about all of those nuances.

Caitlin Kindred: 6:26

Yeah, and I think there's also something to be said for, like, just money in general is such a controversial topic, like it's kind of one of those things that people tend to avoid at dinner tables, right, because it's like it feels rude or whatever.

Caitlin Kindred: 6:39

But I think, especially for millennials who've experienced recessions, and I feel like our generation in particular has experienced so much trauma with the world happenings right, yeah, we had 9-11, we had the dot-com bubble, we had the house there's so many different things that our generation has experienced Money. Our parents are boomers who had different experiences with money, and trying to explain those but also navigate these challenges is really important. So you add that layer to this adhd layer and you're absolutely right that any, any time you're talking about money, it does sound like it's coming from a place of privilege, and that's not the intent here. And I will say I've skimmed through some of these pieces of advice you've provided and these are not, like you know, whatever the people are on shark tank who are like, well, well, if you just did this, if you just stop buying avocado toast, you'll have it's not, it's not about that it's not about this.

Caitlin Kindred: 7:41

It's not about, like here's how I made my first six figures. It's not a LinkedIn post Right about what specific ADHD money challenges we have and then specific ways you might be able to ease that impulsivity and issue with money that you may or may not be experiencing.

Ariella Monti: 7:59

Exactly, Exactly so the sources and the resources that I pulled some of this information from, not only from our existence as just ADHD millennials who are bad with money, also chadorg, the mini ADHD coach and verywellmindcom. And those are all in the show notes. Yes, and so let's get started. So how does ADHD worsen financial challenges? It's, I mean, it's this. It's very much the same thing, the same kind of symptoms that we've been talking about, with, like everything else, right.

Caitlin Kindred: 8:48

You just didn't realize it also impacted your finances. Right, it's literally all of it.

Ariella Monti: 8:53

Exactly, it's like the same symptoms. That makes it hard for you to keep your desk organized is also why it's hard to manage your finances.

Ariella Monti: 9:07

So executive dysfunction is the biggest one. So executive dysfunction is like the biggest one. Disorganization this is the losing invoices, losing bills, losing paychecks if they're not direct deposited. I once, when I was freelancing, I once lost a paycheck that was mailed to me and completely forgot that I had received it and so I invoiced the client again. Oh no, and then had to like work. You know then I like work, that money off, like with the next assignments. Oh, you've got doom, piles of mail and just stuff like on your countertop. This is also connected to task initiation issues. So we put off handling our bills because it's multiple tasks kind of in one task. It might not just be like paying that doctor's bill, it might be, you know, putting in a thousand different passwords for you know to log into your MyChart account and then like selling the soul of your firstborn child in order to check the email.

Caitlin Kindred: 10:27

I'll actually like pull it all together. I'll have the doom pile now in my hand and I'll be like ready to go through this stack one by one and pay the bills. And then I'm like oh, my wallet's in the other room I have to go get it Cause. I I don't have my card numbers memorized because that would be extremely dangerous for me. So then I'm like now I have to get up and it just and all of a sudden it to the other room and then 14 steps back.

Caitlin Kindred: 10:57

But like it's just that kind of it's that mentality too.

Ariella Monti: 11:00

It makes it harder. Exactly.

Caitlin Kindred: 11:02

And I get embarrassed. It's triggering Right.

Ariella Monti: 11:07

It's very triggering. So it's and this is something that I have been dealing with for a long time is the like I would literally rather do anything else than handle paying the bills, because it triggers so much guilt and shame and anxiety. And like, when you throw in you know me being financially insecure where, like, you have to decide like am I going to pay this bill or am I going to pay this bill?

Ariella Monti: 11:36

Or now you're seeing, like your credit card debt, you know go skyrocketing yeah right, Like at that point, like if I just put it over here and ignore it, I'll forget about it if it goes underneath this one thing. Right, right, just move it up to the side Right oh now I don't have to think about it anymore.

Caitlin Kindred: 11:58

But then you feel bad about that too, and then you get anxious about the bills that you haven't paid, or anxious about when you do pay it, how much money you're going to have left. Like there's so many other pieces of it's a very emotional experience. Money is already emotional for everyone, and then you add in this other element of like shame spiraling which we've discussed in a previous episode, and it just makes it so much harder to handle exactly that kind of thing.

Ariella Monti: 12:24

Yeah, yeah, it's like it wants to purposely make themselves feel bad. I mean like, I mean, nobody is wired that way, but adhd people are definitely not wired that way.

Ariella Monti: 12:38

So right, right um another big issue time blindness, because time is meaningless and it also feels like everything is a priority or nothing is a priority, yeah, so it either needs to be done immediately or it just never needs to be done, ever. Um, so this is the like, the getting a bill and then being like, okay, I'll pay that later, and then like three weeks go by and now it's due. Oops, it happens a lot with stuff that is taking place like in the far future. So I think we could talk about like our chances of ever retiring in another episode. But, like you know, fundamentally I came from a family who was very mindful of like saving for retirement, and so I know I should be squirreling away money for large expenses like way off in the future. But I get way more dopamine by planning a weekend getaway for next month.

Caitlin Kindred: 13:43

Or starting a new hobby and buying all the things for it. And suddenly you're $300 in and you're like, oh, I shouldn't have spent that, because you not only did you not use it, because once the dopamine hit runaway, you stopped caring about the items that you bought, but that $300 is something you could have put towards a weekend getaway or your retirement right Like there's just exactly, it's, it's little things too.

Ariella Monti: 14:09

So that ties in perfectly with the impulsiveness because we're so low dopamine, we are looking for more dopamine, and this is where I have it in the in the notes here. When I was writing all of this up, cue ariela realizing she forgot to take her meds this morning. Me too, yeah, I forgot. I have since taken them. But when I was writing this up I was like, oh yeah, store you know, thinking in my head like store-bought, dopamine is great.

Caitlin Kindred: 14:37

I forgot to take mine today I haven't taken it, yeah oops, it's okay that instant gratification of, of seeing a tiktok about embroidery and then like buying all the materials which I still have I started embroidery and I still have an unfinished like thing and I'm I'm actually like decent at it because I have ADHD and I'm decent at a lot of things, and I just never finished it.

Ariella Monti: 15:06

Right, exactly yes, and that there's more dopamine in that than saving for retirement.

Caitlin Kindred: 15:14

Oh yeah, which I don't even know will happen, right, I don't even know if I'll ever retire, so like, right, yolo.

Ariella Monti: 15:25

Right, that's a whole like if somebody hasn't studied. Like the way millennials are basically like throwing away, like their thoughts of retirement, like somebody should study, study, right.

Caitlin Kindred: 15:40

And then all the buzzfeed articles that are like, if you have an adult money, now look at these cool things you can buy. And it's like a weird penguin light and you're like, yes, I do, I do need that because what is?

Ariella Monti: 15:52

retirement like I have adults, exactly. I can do what I want, right, exactly.

Caitlin Kindred: 15:57

Exactly, yeah, that's, one of them is all the hobbies. What else? What else are we going to stupidly do?

Ariella Monti: 16:05

The big one that I experienced when I was working in an office with other people is like the buying lunch or bringing lunch. And then your coworkers are like I'm going to go to this. You know I'm going to go to Moe's Monday or Pizza Friday. And now you're like, oh cool, I would much rather have a Moe's burrito than the turkey sandwich that I brought.

Caitlin Kindred: 16:30

You also justify it because you're like but see, if I do that, then I already have my lunch made for tomorrow. So I don't have to, I can just take, I can leave this in the fridge here and then I have it for tomorrow and I'm all good. I don't have to pack lunch tonight so that you play weird mind games with yourself with that stupid stuff. Exactly.

Ariella Monti: 16:48

And like I think this, like this cycle of like making my lunch, bringing my lunch, not eating my lunch because my friends are going out to eat, and then spending money that I didn't have to spend, like could have diagnosed me with ADHD in my early 20s. Like that alone, I think would have been like yep, there you go. And then I mean when we think about impulsiveness, like any in-person shopping experience, like especially when we were all shopping at Target.

Caitlin Kindred: 17:18

Oh man, target was my kryptonite. Yeah, it was my. I would stop at Target on the way home from work just for, like the dopamine hit, like just to walk through the Target and be like, oh look at these cute earrings that I'll wear three times and never, but look they're, but they're cats. Look how cute. Like just stupid stuff like that. But yes, right, Yep.

Ariella Monti: 17:41

Exactly Yep. It's like a scientific term, but it is definitely a colloquial term for the extra money that we spend as a result of our ADHD symptoms. So it's the fresh produce that never gets used and just rots in your CRISPR. It's the late fees for paying a bill that was after it's due. It's the increased interest rates because all those late bills ended up going to collections Not that you know I'm taking out loans anytime soon.

Caitlin Kindred: 18:30

Payday loans.

Ariella Monti: 18:31

Oh, man, like yeah, and then like even stuff like buying a second item because you lost the first.

Caitlin Kindred: 18:42

That literally just happened to me. I have a hat that I wear for I go on my walks, and it is one of those ones that you can, like, put your hair through it, so it has kind of a cut out hole on the back and I was like, oh, I like this gray hat.

Caitlin Kindred: 18:56

I can't seem to find mine, I'll see, I'll just buy this other one. It's not expensive. But to me, opening this hat and then turning around to hang it up, and where is the other hat, on the exact hook I'm going to hang up the new hat on, and I was like, really, you did this, this is what you did. This is stupid. Why did you do that? And being so angry at myself, and then guilt and shame, and I was and someone's like, well, you could have just sent it back. And then what did my stupid self do? I was like, no, because if I lose this one, then I have the other. Like you know, you justify oh, my gosh, it was. So I I shame spiraled over that for several hours that night, like just beating myself up over an $11 hat.

Ariella Monti: 19:45

Right. So the earbuds that I'm using today, because my other headphones are dead, they need to be charged. So the ones that I'm wearing right now I have two pairs of them, because I lost one pair, couldn't find them anywhere for a while and was just like screw it. You know, at the time I was working out a lot, so I needed something. Yeah, um, yeah, and so I went and bought a new pair and then, I think it was like two weeks later, I found the other ones yep, yep, yep, and like these weren't cheap. I mean, they're not like AirPods, but they were like 60 bucks. But now I have one that I keep in my car and one that I keep in the house. So, like it is what it is.

Caitlin Kindred: 20:30

Yeah, it's fine yeah. You'll make it work, but it's just, it's so frustrating when you do stuff like that and I don't mean you, but like when a person with this deals with this it's so stupid, yeah, yeah, okay, let's actually like address this, because I think a lot of the times in our episodes we're like here's the problems, come back next week for solutions. But I think we got to talk about what some solutions are for this. Like this would be absolutely good so these are just some ideas.

Ariella Monti: 20:55

Some came from the resources that I talked about earlier. Some are things that I or my friends have done that I've found helpful. So, like we say with all of these kinds of ideas, take what you need, leave what you don't. Your mileage will vary, so the first one is always going to be like work with a financial planner or an advisor who did much better in accounting than I did, somebody who's actually certified or whatever professional licenses are required. They can help you figure out your long and your short term goals. Somebody like a financial coach could help you establish a budget and a system for sticking to that budget. That is something that my husband and I did a few years ago. We worked with a financial coach who actually also has ADHD, so she understood a lot of out like a lot of my challenges and we came up with just kind of a budgeting system that has worked. Nothing works perfectly ever, but has worked reasonably well and has been reasonably successful compared to the chaos before.

Caitlin Kindred: 22:08

Yeah, at least someone who's kind of you know objective third party who's like, hey, these are things you could be doing and these are things you should be doing, and then having that person kind of check in with you every so often is probably a good thing. Exactly exactly.

Ariella Monti: 22:23

And you know when we're talking about financial privilege. Yes, those services do come with a price. I do believe that there are some nonprofits out there and other resources that are either free or low cost. There might be resources at your library, so it can kind of run the gamut of like spending money to save money.

Caitlin Kindred: 22:47

Sure.

Ariella Monti: 22:47

Yeah yeah, Budget and home finance apps. So I personally I don't know if you use any, but personally I can't recommend any because I don't use them. But I know that I have a ton of friends to do. If you're going to use one, I would recommend asking a neurodivergent friend. Don't ask your neurotypical friend which one they use. No, if ask the friend who has a lot of the same challenges that you do yeah, I started.

Caitlin Kindred: 23:20

I signed myself up for nerd wallet. There's a free and a premium service. I just use the free service, sometimes just the email alone that says like, hey, good job, your credit score went up. You're like, yes, like it's just enough of the hit that you need. Or sometimes, you know, sometimes a little guilt and shame is a good thing right when it'll say like, hey, you spent this much on clothes. Do you even wear these clothes? You work from home. You don't need nice clothes, like you can wear a t-shirt. It doesn't say that, but it will say like you know, you spent this much on XYZ this month. Just have that in your head and you're like, oh, yeah, so that's the one I use and it can like pull together all of your stuff for you.

Caitlin Kindred: 24:02

I've also heard lots of good things about Rocket Money, which is the app that searches for your subscription services that you're not using and then it will help you cancel them, which, for adhd people, I think that should be included in the adhd tax of, like, all the stuff we sign up for on a whim, but then don't actually end up using.

Ariella Monti: 24:24

So um something to think about there right, exactly you skipping ahead on my little like idea list. A tip for that that I got I think actually it was I think it was our friend joanna who said it the turning off the auto renew like as soon as you sign up for something yeah, I have gotten better about that

Ariella Monti: 24:48

um if it's like a non-essential subscription, you know, because you know that week is going to turn into like a full month, like in a blink. So yeah, like sign up for it and then pretty much immediately cancel the subscription because you're still going to get the full you get the full year, you're just not yeah yeah, exactly, whatever it is, you try it out exactly so smart, For this could be bank dependent, but it have two checking accounts.

Ariella Monti: 25:20

So one and this is actually what we do and what we have found to be really helpful is your direct deposit and your monthly like your consistent monthly bills are all go in and come out of one checking account. And then the other one is the one that money goes into for all of the like regular spending, that or even non-essential spending. So that's what you pull out of, like when you go to the doctor or you go, you know you go out to eat or something. It's kind of like you're using your out of sight, out of mind, to your advantage, because all of your bills and stuff are all going in and coming out of one pot that you're not touching for stuff like groceries.

Caitlin Kindred: 26:17

Yeah, you could even take it a step further and say, like, that account doesn't have a debit card, or if it does, you don't carry that debit card with you, it stays in one place all the time. You never get to touch it. So, that means you're not, you can, can't, even you can't use it because it's not with you, right?

Ariella Monti: 26:35

and then just make sure everything is auto paid auto pay is your friend.

Caitlin Kindred: 26:40

Like right. Sign everything up for that, for sure, right right, definitely I.

Ariella Monti: 26:48

I had intentions of doing this, but I didn't know. I probably I had intentions of doing this and then, like, never follow through with it.

Ariella Monti: 26:56

Like you know, a lot of adhd people do right, exactly, but what I was planning on doing was getting some kind of like reloadable debit card or actually like. My paypal account has something like that, um, where, basically, you put money on it and then you can use it for non-essential spending. You have to check the fees on this, though, because you know how they charge you. I think for the PayPal one that I was planning on using, I don't think there were any fees associated with it, because I was basically just putting my like money that was already in my PayPal account like onto it. Yeah, makes sense, and that was what I was going to use for for, like, going to the coffee shop and stuff like that.

Ariella Monti: 27:38

Yeah, I never did, because it was an extra step Right, but it could be something that works for someone else.

Caitlin Kindred: 27:47

If Amazon is your kryptonite. I'm not pointing any fingers at myself, but I'm totally pointing fingers at myself. Tonight I'm not pointing any fingers at myself, but I'm totally pointing fingers at myself. Consider, like a reloadable gift card or like a monthly allowance that you put towards that. So it's like you only get to spend, you know, $75 a month on Amazon and then when that $75 is done, you're done, and you don't have you don't have backup payment methods stored inside there so that you can't, you can't overspend. So something like that might be really helpful for you, if you have, if you know that there is a thing that your kryptonite is, is absolutely attached to for sure. So something like that.

Ariella Monti: 28:25

Definitely and, like you know, speaking of Amazon, like cancel Prime, cancel prime, like if you, or like just seriously consider it, because having to wait longer for something or pay for shipping is going to throw up a speed bump and the stuff that you think you need right away you might not actually need right away.

Ariella Monti: 28:52

Yeah, um, we canceled prime and you can still have subscribe and save while not being a prime member right I think, like we did for a long time, we thought you had to be a prime member and also to have subscribe and save, and that's not the case. We canceled prime in january and I can honestly tell you that it has it's decreased a lot of our like I say our my impulse purchases. Um, I think, a lot. I put a lot more intention into what I buy and stuff, because I either have to pay for shipping it's going to take me forever to get it or, when you're not a Prime member, there are some things where the price is more expensive, so it's a little bit higher. So all of those things kind of throw up a few roadblocks.

Ariella Monti: 29:48

Now, that being said, if Prime is something that is an accommodation for you, it makes certain things more accessible that you need to survive and exist. Like, please keep using, like, keep using it. This is just something that, if you're looking to slow down your you know you don't have impulse control when it comes to it. This is just another strategy.

Caitlin Kindred: 30:20

Well, and you are the one who turned me on to the only buying things on certain days of the week, like only getting to, like you know, you have things only delivered on Sundays, or you only get to pull the trigger on Sundays and I'm the queen of put it in my cart and then leave it there and like move it to save for later or whatever. And most of the time if I move it to save for later, I don't purchase it. It's just something that I it's almost like a wish list of things I saw on BuzzFeed that I feel like I want to have, but then I don't actually end up buying it. So something like that could be really helpful. And then that way, like if you're like, oh, I, you know, I need this one thing overnight because it's medicine for my dog.

Ariella Monti: 31:03

Right.

Caitlin Kindred: 31:03

But I can't get overnight shipping unless I add, you know, unless I hit $25 worth of whatever, then I can go to my state for later and I go OK. But I actually do kind of want this mascara now, like because I'm out of mascara, I can go to my state for later and I can go okay. But I actually do kind of want this mascara now, like because I'm out of mascara I can move it up to my cart and then I can get you know what I'm saying like it's, it's sort of like that for me, but I still only will actually let myself purchase things one day a week and it's been. That's.

Ariella Monti: 31:26

That alone has been very helpful, and I'm sure my husband appreciates the fact that there's not just like boxes showing up at our house all the time although when christmas time comes around, it's all bets are off, but still, yeah, you know for now it helps exactly, and I think going along with that, like the the save, moving things to like the saved can also work as like a visual wish list kind of like you know what pinterest used to be like right, you know, let's's have seriously.

Ariella Monti: 31:53

Yeah, and you can still use Pinterest as as a visual wishlist, like what I ended up doing is like I take a picture of a thing and then I add it to a running list in my notes app and then why I wanted to buy it. Because very often I will forget the whole if I go and I impulsively buy something and then I get home and then whatever I needed it for, I can't handle like immediately and a couple of days go by Like I will completely forget what.

Caitlin Kindred: 32:29

I wanted it for.

Ariella Monti: 32:31

Yeah Right, wanted it for, yeah right, and so you know, so say I like, say I used. Like, walked into target, saw a basket. I will take a picture of the basket, I will write what I wanted to use the basket for and you know. But not buy it because I know I'm not going to be able to handle that product, like tackle that project immediately and then, like a week or so later, I might find something at home that satisfies the need that I was gonna, you know, use for this basket that is a very good idea.

Caitlin Kindred: 33:07

I love that idea because I am the queen of like, I need this to organize, I need and like, and then I have 50 baskets in my house and I don't need that much stuff. So, yeah, I think that's a really good one. I like that one a lot, yeah.

Ariella Monti: 33:23

And then I kind of do it backwards too. So I'm still trying to find, like the right containers and organizational system for all of my like book, event stuff, and what I'll end up doing is I'm like'm like oh, this is a perfect bin for my postcards and I'll bring it home. And the postcards are too big for the bin. Like so what do you do to take the?

Caitlin Kindred: 33:47

bin back, or do you keep it, because I'm a person, oh no, I'll keep it.

Ariella Monti: 33:52

I will find a use for it.

Caitlin Kindred: 33:54

Exactly, that's exactly it, I'll find a way to use this I right, right, but it still doesn't solve the problem of.

Ariella Monti: 34:01

So what I'll do is, if I'm not specifically shopping for something, I will like either take a picture of the like, so take like the postcard. So what I'll do is I will like measure everything like and then make little notes so that when I am in, say like coals, and I find something I could be like this might fit in my xyz, and then I can like check and see oh, but xyz is actually two inches shorter. I can't use this for that, and then I won't end up buying something that doesn't fit. Yeah, smart Body, double Body doubling is good for all of those organizational.

Caitlin Kindred: 34:47

Everything.

Ariella Monti: 34:48

Literally everything. Oh everything it's good for everything. Everything, it's good for everything, all the things you want to do.

Caitlin Kindred: 34:55

It's good for everything.

Ariella Monti: 34:55

Yeah, you want to do good right, I have used body doubling most successfully with going through those doom piles of mail and filing and stuff. So I will hang out with a friend who also has adhd and either we will do both do projects or I will do the thing that I need to do and they will like just that. They're a talk to me. You know, um, I did go through bills that I had set aside with my therapist. I texted her or emailed her before our session and I was like hey, can we spend the hour like organizing my bills and like, yeah, that's what I did like in virtual.

Ariella Monti: 35:43

So I was like in my office going through everything, and then it was good because she was able to be like, how are you feeling right now?

Caitlin Kindred: 35:51

Like what is this?

Ariella Monti: 35:52

bringing up for you and like work through, like, and she went as far as actually like making notes of the things that I haven't paid, like the bills that had to be handled. Yeah, I didn't like ask her to do that, but she was like okay, well, while you're doing that, I'll make little like notes and stuff.

Caitlin Kindred: 36:14

That's amazing and like, and also it's kind of it's like when you, when you have a fidget task or fidget thing in front of you and so you're, you almost talk more freely because you have something else occupying you in a way. And yeah, that's a really interesting idea. You've talked about that before, but it hadn't occurred to me how helpful it might have been for something like this. I love it.

Ariella Monti: 36:37

Yeah, yeah, definitely Use that divergent thinking of ours. You know we talked about divergent thinking, like how we can kind of see a thing and then we can, you know, think of different ways to like use a thing and so just like, think out of the box for strategies that might work for you, even if they're kind of unorthodox. So, like you know, if a digital calendar is too out of sight, out of mind, like use a paper one, use post-it notes. You know, use whatever is going to use the tools that are going to help you be successful. I hate spreadsheets. So I track all of my business expenses using a Google form and then the Google form turns everything into a spreadsheet and I don't know why. It's easier for me to track my expenses like that, but it is. I say that as though I don't have a stack of receipts from an event I did in July still sitting over by my desk. But it will be easier when I eventually get to it.

Caitlin Kindred: 37:40

Yeah, I love that idea. You've mentioned that to me before. I think it's genius.

Ariella Monti: 37:44

Personally, Anything you can turn into a form.

Caitlin Kindred: 37:46

if you hate spreadsheets, you might as well just do it. Exactly, exactly.

Ariella Monti: 37:52

Use your pathological demand avoidance to your advantage. Okay, so be petty and be spiteful, for your benefit. So happy Tell me everything about this idea Right. So a lot of the things we love, especially about online shopping is put in place specifically to get us to buy more of it. It's free returns and free shipping, like. The system is specifically geared to make us impulsive and to tap into our impulsive tendencies. So just be petty about it. Like, if they want you to add $15 for free shipping, be like no capitalism, I'm not gonna.

Caitlin Kindred: 38:43

Oh my gosh, I love this. So because I love a nice petty moment. I'm just, I am that that girl right, right, I'm so basic. I love a good petty moment. So if this is my opportunity to do it, yes, yes, doing it. Yes, I mean nice big finger to capitalism.

Ariella Monti: 39:05

I mean pretty much like yeah, you know, I, I am one of those people who have ridiculously downsized my target spending since they ended their dei policies. Yeah, me too and so now it's like oh, some of it is like my core values and my morals, and the other part of it is just like like no target, like I'm gonna go to Staples and get my office, I'm going to get my school supplies there at Staples, instead of Target.

Caitlin Kindred: 39:41

And I won't buy a cute shirt that goes along with it Exactly.

Ariella Monti: 39:46

I am just going to go, I'm just going to Staples and I'm just buying office supplies which I mean not for nothing I could do a lot of damage and staples.

Caitlin Kindred: 39:56

Yeah, me too, I have before when, I was teaching, I used to do a lot of damage and staples. But also yeah, like the impulse, like the little treat for myself it wasn't like a T-shirt and jeans or whatever, it was like a candy bar that you would get in the aisle at the end and like how much more. You know it was still the same dopamine hit. It was like, oh, I got a candy bar. It was exactly the same feeling.

Caitlin Kindred: 40:16

It was just that you know. And it was just a cheaper one. It was cheaper dopamine cheaper.

Ariella Monti: 40:22

Exactly, yeah, no, I love it.

Caitlin Kindred: 40:23

I think it's great Power that spite, I'm here for it Exactly.

Ariella Monti: 40:29

Like you, spite to your advantage, like just, I mean just go for it.

Caitlin Kindred: 40:31

Yeah, there are days where I'm totally powered by coffee and spite, like it's all good, exactly.

Ariella Monti: 40:37

And the last one, I think it's more of a mindset shift. It's, you know, looking at some of our ADHD taxes, the things that we pay more for as part of our ADHD, like looking at it as an accommodation that helps us not just save money but like helps us exist in just a less stressful way. So, like the chopped salad kit is more expensive than buying all of the ingredients separately. But if I get all of the ingredients separately and then I have to put the salad together, I may as well just take all that stuff and throw it in the garbage as soon as I bring it home, because that's where it's going to end up.

Caitlin Kindred: 41:23

Yes, like Feel that in my bones.

Ariella Monti: 41:26

Right Meanwhile, the chopped salad kit is. All I got to do is open up the bag and put it in a bowl. Yeah, the, you know, my husband makes baked chicken, you know, for he like meal preps and he will make him like like a couple of days worth of like baked chicken. And he asked me, like do you want me to just make more?

Caitlin Kindred: 41:50

And I will, you know you know, so you can have it ready for your salad.

Ariella Monti: 41:54

Yeah, exactly Right, and but my answer was no. I want to keep using these. Frozen breaded chicken tenders are more expensive of crispy chicken is going to. Is I'm more likely to eat that chicken salad with the chicken tenders than I am the baked chicken which you know. It's not, like you know, my husband's not from the Midwest.

Caitlin Kindred: 42:23

Like he puts spices on it, like it's like you know, what's so funny is you were doing you're describing your breaded chicken and his chicken and I realized that my eyes were closed and I was like starting to salivate. Maybe I should just open my eyes, because how creepy is it that I'm just sitting here like nodding my head back and forth and like kind of rocking myself while she's talking about chicken. But it's totally, yeah, like if you're going to have a salad, having like some crispy chicken skin or something like something bright. Oh, that makes it so much better than just baked naked chicken.

Ariella Monti: 43:03

Right, I get it. It's not even bad.

Caitlin Kindred: 43:05

It's just that I don't want it Right? You know another?

Ariella Monti: 43:08

like the like, the final one that I that is really big with us is I mean, granted, like my son has very restrict, a very restrictive palate, you know. So we always have strawberries, but, like, fresh strawberries are way more expensive than frozen strawberries. But I'm not gonna put frozen strawberries in my yogurt because they give me the ick and do people actually let strawberries thaw and then eat them.

Caitlin Kindred: 43:35

I don't know, is that a thing I don't do, that I use my frozen strawberries for like a dog treat and like a Eat. I don't like I put them in my smoothie. I know, ew, of course you don't put those in your yogurt. That's just I can't. I'm sorry.

Ariella Monti: 43:55

I feel like I've just offended some people and I just can't do it. I just can't do it. Oh my God. And this is why we will pay more for the fresh strawberries, because it's either eat fruit or not, right.

Caitlin Kindred: 44:06

There is no. Yes, if you would like me to eat any fruit at all, then you need to make sure it's a texture that I can handle. Otherwise, no, exactly all. Then you need to make sure it's a texture that I can handle. Otherwise, no, exactly. I actually just saw a reddit thread about this that was like what's the food that everyone is like? Oh my god, I love it so much and you just cannot stand it. And a lot of people are like avocados, which I can understand. Avocados on their own, without any flavor, like there's no there's nothing to them.

Caitlin Kindred: 44:32

Like that's gross. I can have guacamole and I will put everything but the bagel seasoning all over my avocado toast but I don't just eat avocado, like that's weird, right, but mine was bananas because it was like, oh yeah, I cannot like the texture of a banana, like I don't mind the flavor, but a texture. I don't love it. But I actually really like banana Laffy Taffy's because it's like that synthetic I love. I love that Like those are good. But I can and I'll eat banana bread and I will put bananas, frozen bananas, in my smoothies. But I cannot stand banana and the idea of a frozen strawberry like that texture just gives me the same vibe. Like I don't.

Ariella Monti: 45:15

Right.

Caitlin Kindred: 45:17

If you're going to, yeah, you're right If it's more expensive now, but you'll actually use it and or eat it or whatever, it might be worth it to pay that ADHD tax to Right To make it happen Exactly.

Ariella Monti: 45:30

And that like goes that. You can find examples of that in like food's the easiest one, but you can find examples of that, I think, everywhere. I like even like keeping prime. You know when, like, yeah, it would be cheaper to get rid of prime, but if like keeping it is better for your mental health for one reason or another, absolutely, absolutely Do it. You know, yeah, like Absolutely health for one reason or another, absolutely, absolutely do it. You know, yeah, like, absolutely. So it's the you know. So I think the mind like, yes, you know we do have this, the adhd tax for some things, but then, on the other end of it, don't really like, if you're gonna think about it as a tax, think of it as like the the times when taxes are actually used for good things like national parks and feeding children.

Caitlin Kindred: 46:18

That's what government does, Ron. It provides services to people Right. No, totally Think of it as providing a service for yourself. Right Right, be fine with it, it's okay, all right. Well, in the end, money is the worst screw capitalism money is terrible.

Caitlin Kindred: 46:38

Screw. Capitalism is apparently the way, but it's not helping anyone right now. At the moment, you know if you're one of the top one percent, you're probably not listening to this show. So whatever, no big who cares. Like you're listening to all your money as it, like jingles in your pocket or whatever the heck you don't have coins, never mind.

Caitlin Kindred: 47:04

it's like richie rich, never mind. Um, okay, so next week we are oh my gosh, I can't believe we're actually gonna to tackle this topic. We're talking about ADHD and hormones like, not men's hormones. We're talking about women's hormones and how they impact ADHD, and I've already started researching this and I'm already angry. So if you are a feminist, get ready. Girls, you're going to want to burn your bra. This is rough and all the ways that we should be getting additional support for our issues and we're not. So we'll get into. This is going to be a multi-parter. There's no way around it, so make sure you're sticking around for that. Subscribe now so you don't miss it.

Ariella Monti: 48:02

We will be back in a jiff or a gif I don't know how are you supposed to say that word.

Caitlin Kindred: 48:05

It's gif, because it's, it's back in a jiffy. Yeah, I just meant the word gif, though like the actual image.

Ariella Monti: 48:08

Oh oh it doesn't matter there. You know what I think that.

Caitlin Kindred: 48:14

I think it's what I think it's meant to be Jif but nobody says that because it's got a G. Right, Guys, we're so good at this, I'm professional, hey y'all. Pov you find a diary exposing forbidden magic and the hot museum caretaker's life depends on you burning it, Roots and Ink. The debut novel by Ariella Monti is the fantasy romance for rebels. Use promo code CKANDGK to get 20% off your copy at AriellaMonticom. Again, that's all caps C-K-A-N-D-G-K for 20% off on AriellaMontecom. Get your copy for 20% off today. Uh okay, no one cares Caitlin, no one cares caitlin, no one cares. Um, this is high quality content that everyone wants to listen to. The merits of the word gif versus jif right?

Ariella Monti: 49:28

yeah, I could do a whole episode on that.

Caitlin Kindred: 49:31

oh, who wants to listen to that? No, no, moms care about that. You'd be surprised Really. Also, I'm just going to be very transparent about what, why I don't have anything that I've gotten done and why I don't have any hyper fixations about anything right now.

Caitlin Kindred: 49:50

My dog is special. She is a very special girl I. She's a very high needs dog, and I don't just mean like. I mean like legitimately high needs.

Caitlin Kindred: 50:02

She has severe idiopathic epilepsy and if you are a parent of an epileptic dog, please reach out, because this is some of the hardest stuff I've ever experienced in my life. Think of, like your friend with the really colicky baby or maybe you were that person who had the very colicky baby and the baby never stopped crying. It's like that for three days after my dog has cluster seizures and she's super high needs all the time. If she's in that postictal post seizure period, she's really hard. If she's in that postictal post seizure period, it's she's really hard. So there are going to be times where I am not, I'm not myself, where I'm not posting online, where I'm not a functioning human being and has nothing to do with the amount of meds I may or may not have taken, it's just because she's like keeping me awake for three nights in a row, or like I will be holding this dog's face. She's so anxious in these post-ictal periods. I'll be holding her face and telling her like I love you, mommy's here, you're safe, and she's crying Like she's crying, and we've tested to see if she's in pain. She's not in pain, she's just anxious. And she's also been diagnosed with some behavioral disorders Three, three behavioral disorders. And I'm like, listen, I'm so glad that my family is handling all this as well as they are, because I am losing my mind with her and she's special and I adore her and I have no intention of giving up on her at all. She's just hard.

Caitlin Kindred: 51:34

So if anyone is in that position, like just please know that you have someone else who is there with you and can identify and I'll go into a whole. I'm sure there'll be a whole episode about how to manage this sort of thing at some point, but I wanted to give that little glimpse into my life because I got nothing. Like there's literally nothing else that I can. She is my hyper fixation right now, like just trying to get her absolutely to a place where she lets us sleep at night. It's so bad that, like, the notes from the day she was at the vet read like a horror story. They were like she needed multiple pharmacological pharmacological interventions to help her calm down. It's like, oh man, how bad was it. But it was so bad that she was supposed to have a test done four hours after her last med dose and then 12 hours after her last med dose and they let her go 10 and a half hours after because they were like she needs to go home, like she's such a mess. So, yeah, my poor baby. Anyway, I just wanted to put that out there as, like anyone who needs any kind of support or is living with an extremely challenging like medically challenging dog or pet or anything, you have somewhere else to turn to. But that's my life at this point.

Caitlin Kindred: 52:52

So back to GIFs. Way more entertaining, we'll be back in a GIF. Back to gifs. Way more entertaining, we'll be back in a gif. No, no, next week. We'll be back next week with our conversation about adhd and hormones. Um, until then, as jenny would say, make good choices, love y'all mean it. Thanks for sticking with us. Here's to season five. Bye.