Caitlin Kindred: 0:27

Okay, well, as I stretch and try to talk at the same time, hi, friends, we're all meaning. The two of us, ariella and I, are so glad you're here. Welcome to how to Be a Grownup. This is the how-to show for moms who've deep breath, screamed into a pillow today, or really ever. Did you hear about the group of people chicago who go out like once a week and scream into the void over the lake?

Ariella Monti: 0:54

I saw a like a post about it, but I didn't read any of the details. But the post was enough for me to be like I get it.

Caitlin Kindred: 1:04

Yeah, it was on um, cnn does a like five good things podcast and it was on that a couple weeks ago and then I the, so, the, so she meets, just picked it up. So but it's funny and I was like this man knows, this man gets it sometimes you just need to go scream into the void. Yeah, they do it like three big screams and then they all just like go on their merry way.

Ariella Monti: 1:26

It's hilarious all right, they don't even like go out for like drinks or anything after.

Caitlin Kindred: 1:36

They're just like all right I think it's like sunday morning or something like that. But yeah, just they just go out and scream and think all about their day. It's pretty funny home, yep, exactly go to church sometimes you right, sometimes you just need to get it out and then keep on moving right right uh, okay, well, with me today is ariela monte, who's the novelist and a neuro spicy mom of a neuro spicy child, and she's also a succulent of resilience. That sounds inappropriate. She thrives on chaos and looks good doing it.

Ariella Monti: 2:15

Ariel Lamonti. Folks, I can't. I sit here completely like unshowered. That's part of the chaos.

Caitlin Kindred: 2:22

Listen, I'm unshowered too. I did change my clothes, but I am unshowered. It is what it is, folks. It is what it is Today we're talking about.

Caitlin Kindred: 2:31

We're cracking up, but the topic is actually kind of serious. We're talking about the shame and stigma surrounding ADHD, so you know all the things that make ADHDers feel some type of way about themselves and how other people seem to perceive ADHD. I got thoughts, so we're going to share those, but before we do, let's make sure you're subscribed to this show, okay, so if you haven't already, please hit follow or whatever it is on your favorite podcast app that lets you get updates from your favorite shows so you don't miss any episodes. Yes, yes, okay, so, um, as always, our sources are us and Attitude Mag, because Attitude Mag is the best. I also have been putting together an ADHD playlist on Spotify, so everything that we've been talking about related to ADHD is all in this one playlist, and you can find that link in the show notes so you can get the rundown on ADHD stuff. According to us and some science, we're fact adjacent on this show, so it works right.

Ariella Monti: 3:38

We cite our sources though.

Caitlin Kindred: 3:39

We do cite our sources. It's not like I just make it up. Yeah, no, no.

Ariella Monti: 3:44

So we cite our sources and this is just like the audio version of you know, know your junior year research paper in college can you please write that up as a testimonial?

Caitlin Kindred: 3:58

I might. I can put it in. I'm just gonna have it as like one of the scrolling testimonials on our website. Have you seen our website? Go check out our website. It's at ck and gk podcastcom and hopefully ariela will give me that quote and I'm your junior year research.

Ariella Monti: 4:18

You know it's done at like the last minute, but the information's good. You just hope that you know you put all the information together in the right way so that it makes sense and you didn't practice delivering it because you didn't have time for that.

Caitlin Kindred: 4:31

You figured you'd just wing it, so whatever right, I believe it's called authenticity right, that's what it is in the current speak um so this episode is for all the people who have been told they're too much or they're extra, or they're not enough and not extra. Like how jenny dresses up for all of the occasions extra. That's not what we're talking about here. Like just, they're big. What's the taylor swift thing? She says like your energy is like currency, right.

Caitlin Kindred: 4:57

Some people just can't afford your energy oh, right, yeah okay, um, or maybe you feel like you're a failed adult because you can't just focus, or you can't get it together. And you're listening to the show because it's called how to be a grown-up, and we're trying and you're listening to us try to teach you um, but that's all a part of adhd shame, and so today we're talking about where it comes from, why it sticks with you and how to start unlearning that. So, again, as ariela says, one your mileage will vary on this, so please take what you need and leave the rest. But as the juniors in your, your research, whatever, let me try that again. As you learned from the other juniors in your history and english classes, none of us are mental health professionals. None of them were either. Don't, don't. Don't. Treat our advice like it's true medical advice. It's not. We're just doing the best we can here on our junior year project so right, let me not sniff it and clear my throat into the microphone.

Caitlin Kindred: 6:04

Believe that's podcasting? Bad practices? Okay, so shame and stigma and adhd. Do you ever feel that way? You ever feel like the weird, like ADHD, guilt and shame, oh my.

Ariella Monti: 6:16

God, it's like. It's like it is the reoccurring topic in therapy All the time. Not so much the stigma, though I don't. I don't notice. I'm not saying that it's not there. I don't notice, I'm not saying that it's not there. I'm just saying that, like I personally have not experienced the stigma, probably because I surround myself with so many neurodivergent people but definitely the shame, like the shame and guilt spirals are fun, yeah.

Caitlin Kindred: 6:51

And then you combine it with that Catholic guilt and really it's just therapy. There we need therapy.

Caitlin Kindred: 6:57

Okay so uh, this is not the kind of humiliation we're talking about, where it's like you go to the movies and the person who scans your ticket says, uh, enjoy the show, and you go, you too, and then you think about it for the next, you know, five years. It's not like that. This is a different kind of shame and humiliation. But I think there are some real root causes for this feeling. So I, I personally am blaming childhood experiences, like when you get compared to other people, you feel misunderstood, misunderstood, you are misunderstood, etc. Societal myths and stigma, I would say, are also a big part of this. And then internalized ableism, because I think people don't realize that ADHD is an actual disability that exists scientifically. So just putting that down there. So I think all of these things kind of came together and made some sort of shame smoothie and I'm here to pour that nasty crap down the sink for you because you don't need to be drinking that shame smoothie. So again, childhood experiences, societal myths and internalized ableism.

Caitlin Kindred: 8:06

Also, there are lots of people who think that ADHD is still some sort of moral deficiency. Right, y'all with ADHD are nothing more than lazy slackers. Y'all just lack discipline. Y'all are too sensitive. There's something off about y'all. I don't know what it is about people who think that way, who don't think this is real, but I clearly can't change mine. So when you look at your likely chaotic surroundings as an ADHDer, you probably think something like my problem is that I lack discipline, and that's because there's a chance that someone said something like that to you, especially if you're someone who got bad grades in school. Right?

Caitlin Kindred: 8:49

Those feelings of inadequacy from your childhood academic performance still linger, right? How many times did you hear like she just needs to buckle down and focus or concentrate on what's important, or stop talking in class? That was me. I was always the one talking in class, right? So then when you're late to another meeting, you turn it on yourself. You say, oh my gosh, I'm a mess, I'm lazy, I'll never get ahead, I'll never figure this out. What's going on? Or maybe you were the opposite. Maybe you were like me and instead of getting bad grades in school, you did really well in school because you were anxious and you needed to perform a certain way. So you did so well that even the idea of underperforming made the shame feel worse, right? So, like if you didn't perform at your, you might have thought it was your best, but it's not your normal usual level, then you feel shame for them.

Ariella Monti: 9:44

Yes, or you're a mix of both. Yeah, I think I was. I was a mix. Yeah, I was a mix of both, because I didn't. I wasn't the kid who got in trouble a ton, because I was a people pleaser. I was an anxious people pleaser.

Caitlin Kindred: 10:00

Yep.

Ariella Monti: 10:00

But I did, you know, average in most subjects and then other subjects like math I really really poorly in, which is really common for ADHD kids to be, to have challenges in math, and that's where you know like the lazy and the discipline and the you know like I'm stupid because I can't understand this and all of that.

Caitlin Kindred: 10:33

Yeah, and it's, that's so. I mean, just from a teacher's perspective. If kids are constantly not getting it and no one picks up on the fact that they don't get it, it's not that they're lazy, it's that they don't understand. And then they do poorly. Well, where's the? Where's the motivation to try and fix that right? Like where you're just going to continue to perform poorly because you don't have the skills from the previous lesson or whatever, and it just gets worse and worse until you fall further and further behind and then you just end up like I suck at this. So then when you get the bad grade, you don't feel any motivation to do better because you already, like, have internalized I suck at right. Right, yes, we can get into a whole thing about that there's a reason that I graded my papers the way that I did.

Caitlin Kindred: 11:20

There's a, but that's. That's neither here nor there. We're staying on track is a is a difficult thing for adhd years, but I just like to say that for the record, if just try harder worked, every single person who had ADHD in your life would be a CEO and would be your boss right now. Because we've all heard it and just leave me alone. Sometimes my brain is running on Windows 95. And we're clearly all in a 5G situation here, so you're just gonna have to let it be Okay. In a 5G situation here, so you're just going to have to let it be Okay.

Caitlin Kindred: 11:55

So this kind of feeds into that stigma piece. Right, despite hearing about ADHD everywhere all the time these days, everyone's got ADHD. No, it's not that everyone has ADHD. It's the people who were not diagnosed when they were younger are finally getting diagnosed. That's why the numbers are surging, because, in particular, women are finally being diagnosed. So shut up about that. Anyway, there are still those people who refuse to believe that ADHD is real. But there's more to it than that. Right, we've already touched on that. He just makes bad choices. He's just lazy people who think that ADHD is an excuse for quote-unquote bad behavior, right, but there's other sources of this stigma. So one is that ADHD is perceived to be a childhood disorder, meaning he'll grow out of it, right? Since ADHD is commonly thought of as a childhood disorder, adults who have it or claim to have it have come under suspicion. So people seem to think that you're using ADHD as an excuse for your circumstances or your behavior.

Caitlin Kindred: 12:57

A lot of people perceive ADHD to be a male-only disorder. That's the patriarchy's fault. That's all I have to say about that. If a girl has common ADHD traits, then there must be something really wrong with her Right, especially if she's like a hyperactive type.

Ariella Monti: 13:13

Right.

Caitlin Kindred: 13:14

Physically hyperactive. Most girls who have hyperactive type are hyperactive in their head and constantly bouncing from one thought to the next. Ok, or the opposite is true. Right, you don't act like a person with ADHD because it's not a physical type of ADHD, it's an attentive type. Or because, again, the hyperactivity is in her brain and not in her physical movements. Right, and the stereotype of ADHD which we've discussed many weeks ago is a hyperactive little boy, right, and if it doesn't fit that mold, then whatever.

Caitlin Kindred: 13:48

The other piece of this source of stigma that I think is important to mention is that it's an unseen disability. It's like other mental health disorders in that you don't see, unless it's a little physical running around, little boy with all this energy. You don't see what ADHD actually is. So you add that to the widespread negativity around mental health in general, plus taking pharmaceuticals, and you get people who are going to say nasty and mean things. Actually, fairly recently, I want to say like a week or so ago I saw some post on threads where this girl was like how come everybody's taking medication for things that like, just like, do better, like you don't need medication all the time. And Elise Myers bless Elise Myers, if you, if you know, you know who she is. But she, she comments like something to the effect of how nice for you that your body produces all of the chemicals that it needs in order to be healthy. Mine, mine, does not produce this, and it was, I want to say, like serotonin and dopamine. And she was like, and because I don't, if I didn't take pharmaceuticals, I'd be in a ditch somewhere like that's just right. She's been very open about her mental health struggles and I like I'm just thinking about, like what about these people who are born like type one diabetes, like they're born needing insulin from day one? Right? Like how is that? But then anyway.

Caitlin Kindred: 15:17

So I commented underneath Elise Myers that I was like, listen, I cannot make my own bread. I mean, I probably could, but not well enough to make sandwiches all the time and that's too much work for me. So instead I go to the store and I buy bread, right, because store-bought bread is fine. I also do not make enough dopamine and since I don't make enough, store-bought also needs to be fine. And as my mom always says, oh look, I made fireworks behind my head. I don't know how I did that. Y'all, if you don't know how to do that, you're going to have to send me a message because I have no idea how it's doing it. But the other piece of it is like that my mom always says is better living through pharmacology. You wouldn't say that about someone who has diabetes. You wouldn't say that about someone who needs chemotherapy.

Caitlin Kindred: 16:01

Stop saying it about people who need chemicals that make their brain function. Anyway, if any of those thoughts about you know, you'll grow out of it. Or only little boys have this, or it's not an actual disability, or in your head you've probably internalized these very ableist ideas and you've been doing that since you were a kid. So that's another reason why you might feel some shame around this. Shame tends to manifest itself in various ways and we've talked about some of these in other episodes in the past, but I'm going to touch on them again. So, in general, symptoms of how your shame might show up Mood disorders and sometimes crippling anxiety, self-medication with drugs or alcohol. Self-medication with drugs or alcohol, especially for undiagnosed ADHDers or other dangerous behaviors, adrenaline junkies, dopamine chasing, etc. Defensiveness, which can come across as anger. Also, to be fair, irritability is a very real symptom of ADHD, so you end up lashing out at the people closest to you and pushing them away when you actually really need them.

Caitlin Kindred: 17:08

The other big general symptom is masking, which we've talked about before. Go listen to that episode if you're not sure what that means, but trying to fit in by masking your symptoms. You might see those symptoms in all facets of your life, but specific to work or school, you might see procrastination which leads to guilt, which leads to more procrastination, and then, like panic, working right. That happens. There's also, in work or school, a fear of asking for accommodations I don't deserve help. I don't actually need help. She doesn't need help. She's very smart. She just needs to apply herself, because when you did ask for help, you didn't get it because someone wrote off what your symptoms were as you know, not a real need.

Caitlin Kindred: 17:56

Or maybe you don't want to ask for help because you're a people pleaser and you don't want to inconvenience another person, which is why I don't ask for help yeah yeah, yes, in relationships you might also see symptoms like over apologizing, sorry that I exist, right, it's like you're standing in the kitchen. Oh, sorry for what. Do you know how many times?

Ariella Monti: 18:21

I do that. I say sorry for everything All the time.

Caitlin Kindred: 18:24

So I'm trying to be better about being like thank you for instead of I'm sorry, it's really hard, yes, but like oh sorry, oh sorry All the time For what? Just I'm just standing here? Or people pleasing. Adhders tend to be intense people pleasers because they don't want to be rejected because RSD is real, but also because they know that they're a little weird, they're a little off and they don't want people to pick up on that.

Caitlin Kindred: 18:56

It also leaves them highly vulnerable to manipulation, which is another thing In parenting, adhd might show up as I'm failing my kids. You're comparing yourself to neurotypical parents. You just constantly feel like you're inadequate, feelings of inadequacy across the board, but in parenting in particular. Because, yeah, other parents quote, unquote other parents seem to have these great relationships with their kids and you don't have that kind of relationship. So let's talk about fighting this shame, all of this garbage, and getting past it, and so I'm specifically talking to myself, but I hope that they find. I hope that you find some of this helpful, ariela. You might find some of this helpful. Arielle, you might find some of this helpful. So, just this is me giving you advice, even though you didn't ask for it.

Caitlin Kindred: 19:51

So we're going to start by separating the morality of ADHD from the science of ADHD. You cannot beat yourself up about something that you literally have no control over. You wouldn't attach immoral or judgmental thoughts to someone with a physical ailment or disability, correct? So again we go back to that diabetes disorder. You're born a type 1 diabetic. People aren't going to be like ew. You know what I mean. People don't judge that. They do judge type 2 diabetes sometimes because people view that as self-inflicted, but type 1 they

Caitlin Kindred: 20:32

don't Right or you're born with, I don't know, some other sort of heart defect or whatever. People don't judge stuff like that, but they do with this stuff Anyway. So I'm going to remind you that ADHD is a physical ailment. It is a physical disability. It's supported by real science, with MRIs and genetic studies. So you cannot view ADHD as a personality flaw or a moral fault. It's a brain type. It's not a flaw.

Caitlin Kindred: 21:06

The physical disability is the part where you don't make the chemicals that your brain needs to be its best self. That's the end of it. Yes, it's a real disorder. It comes with real challenges and you can choose to face those challenges head on or you can wallow in the shame that someone else taught you instead of being your most authentic, amazing self. It's a physical ailment. Your brain doesn't produce chemicals, so don't beat yourself up about it. Okay, so you're going to name the narrative. Remember my remember? I told you about Gladys. Gladys is my ADHD brain. She's here, she's back. She's going to help you separate yourself from your brain and yourself from the RSD that your brain carries around in the world's most ridiculous suitcase, like the stupidest little suitcase. That's what Gladys carries your RSD in. It's like a Mary Poppins bag only it looks like.

Caitlin Kindred: 22:03

Pee Wee Herman's fun house Like it's the most stupid thing, right? This shame isn't mine. This shame is Gladys. Shut up, gladys. You're stupid and your suitcase is ugly right Now. To be clear, I'm not saying that you can make excuses for yourself. It's not Gladys' fault that I behaved in some crappy way. That wasn't appropriate. Gladys exists to keep me from shame spiraling about that. I can put it on Gladys that I you know that I feel some type of way and I keep ruminating on it. That's Gladys' position here. My behavior is not Gladys. She's how I separate out the shame. Okay, I'm not pawning off my responsibilities and I just want to be clear. There's Gladys and then there's Myrtle, and Myrtle is the ghost in my house who does things I don't like like leaves out shoes or boxes or messiness.

Caitlin Kindred: 22:59

Or leaves cabinets open that's Myrtle. Boxes or messiness. Or leaves cabinets open, that's Myrtle Gladys is my shame and my ADHD brain. In addition to naming your narrative and separating that from yourself, you're going to rewrite your story and you're going to remember that ADHD is a superpower. You have so many strengths like creativity, originality, hyper-focus, persistence, initiative, humor. Those are very common among people with ADHD. So remember that piece of it when you start to shame spiral and tell Gladys to shut up because you're funny. Shut up, gladys, I'm funny. Right, there you go. Now.

Caitlin Kindred: 23:41

Another thing I said that ADHDers are vulnerable to people pleasing and manipulation. So here's what you're going to do You're going to expect respect from others and from yourself, because people who are buried in shame often let other people walk all over them. You get stuck in this cycle of people pleasing you constantly apologize, you over-apologize, and then you ruminate on the thing that happened that made over apologize, and then you ruminate on the thing that happened that made you apologize, and then you don't enforce boundaries that keep you safe. So basically, it's like being in junior high all over again and you're an easy target, like. I hate to say it that way, but you are, and when you remember all of those things that I just listed off, that you bring to the table, you can start to see yourself as someone who is actually worthy of respect. You can gain the confidence and start to respect yourself, which means that people won't give you any guff and you don't have to take it from other people either.

Caitlin Kindred: 24:42

Okay, so here's some sentences that you can say when someone is a jerk about ADHD. I have ADHD and it's just as real as other medical conditions. I work hard, and I bet you have no idea how demoralizing it is to hear you say something like that. I like that. This is one of my favorites. Wow, I'm surprised you feel comfortable talking about mental health conditions that way. Can you help me understand what you mean by that, or tell me more about that? I love making them explain their stupidness and bigotry.

Caitlin Kindred: 25:19

My favorite, yeah, also my personal addition here F off Gladys gladys. So yeah, tell her to go away, or whatever her stupid name is linda, I don't know, but she it doesn't matter, okay, um, the next thing you're gonna do to help get rid of this shame is find your people. You mentioned this earlier. You surround yourself with so many neurodivergent folks. There's a, there's an idea in neurodivergent communities that if all of your friends are neurodivergent, got news for you. You probably aren't.

Ariella Monti: 25:55

Yeah, it's unlikely that you are the token neurotypical right, You're not Sorry token.

Caitlin Kindred: 26:01

No, that ain't you, no, no no, you're not special.

Ariella Monti: 26:06

You are not a special snowflake, you are just an ADHD. Yeah, you're probably an ADHD, or?

Caitlin Kindred: 26:12

an autistic or whatever.

Ariella Monti: 26:16

We all tend to find each other.

Caitlin Kindred: 26:19

That's good, because finding your people is a way to save off this shame right. Follow other ADHD creators. Adhd Threads is a good one. How to ADHD on YouTube is a great channel. Others we've shared in this episodes and, by the way, I would consider Ariella and I to be ADHD creators at this point. So if you're not following us, now's the time. Yes, shameless plug here. Okay.

Caitlin Kindred: 26:45

Therapy, especially ADHD informed therapy and coaching can really, really, really help by giving you an objective third party to talk to. If you're not sure about it, attitude Mag has a great directory of professionals to support you and I've linked that in the blog post for the episode. And then also just look for other people in your life who are neurodivergent and who are open to talk about it. I do not have any shame about talking about this. The ADHD shame, yes. The shame about talking about my mental health? No, because I think the more we talk about it, the better off we're all going to be and more people are going to realize that they're not alone. So I have no problem telling you every single medication that I'm on for my mental health, how much of it I take, and making recommendations. So find people in your life, who are like that, who are open to talk about it. And if those don't exist in your real life, they do exist online and lots of people want to talk and have that community with you.

Caitlin Kindred: 27:42

Yeah, the other thing is to create systems to prevent shame. I realize that sounds stupid. Okay, but there are actual ways that you can prevent shame when you know your shame triggers. For example, let's say you always lose your car keys. Okay, well, come up with a specific system to keep track of them. Take a small basket, put it on the table right by the front door. Or get one of those cute little cloud magnets. Have you seen those? It's like a wall-mounted cloud magnet and it's adorable. Come on, you'd want to stick your keys on that every day. It's so cute. And that way you won't get mad at yourself for losing your keys and then you won't shame spiral. And as you get better with those systems, you'll be like yes, I put my keys in the bowl three days in a row, people. And then you can go on adhd threads and you can be like guys, I put my keys in the bowl for three days in a row, please clap, and people will clap for you, right, so like people will be genuinely, genuinely happy for you.

Ariella Monti: 28:42

It's so great, so the more you excited for you. Genuinely happy for you.

Caitlin Kindred: 28:44

It's so great. So the more you do that you get proud of it and then you get higher self-esteem and then that starts to snowball and you'll find other systems to prevent more shame. It works, I promise. There are ways to prevent it. Practice shamelessness. This is what I'm talking about when I say I will tell you every single mental health condition that I have.

Caitlin Kindred: 29:06

Okay, so most of our listeners are moms. I'm going to take you back, mother dearest, to the lack of shame that you felt when you were in the process of and done birthing your child, and done birthing your child. Now, when I was born, my mom was in a teaching hospital and there were just people coming in and out and she was like screaming at people to get out and leave her alone In mine. It's not so much that I had a teaching hospital as it was that it was during like shift changes. I was there long enough for that, so I had multiple people all up in my business that by the time I left the hospital, I had had probably no less than 15 different hands on or in my body in some way. Shape or form. Right, do you remember having that many people hot up in your business. Hey, are you a proud member of the weop in your business? Are you a proud member of the we Do Not Care Club? If you know, you know. Channel that vibe right Out your ADHD proudly.

Caitlin Kindred: 30:16

I forgot your birthday because my brain cleared its cookies. That's my bad. Let's celebrate belatedly. Ps, also, I personally love late birthdays. I think it makes the fun last longer. So if I celebrate your birthday late, just remember it's because I love you and late birthdays are great. Okay, laugh at yourself. Oh my God, of course my keys are in the fridge. They were hot in my hand. I was hot.

Ariella Monti: 30:39

I put my face in the fridge.

Caitlin Kindred: 30:41

Of course that's where they are. Why not Right? Find ways to laugh at yourself and find ways to go. You know what this is me Like. This is who I am.

Caitlin Kindred: 30:52

If I don't laugh at it, I'll cry or feel shame. So just be okay with it, it's all right, and then keep trying. There will be times when you make yourself angry or frustrated and you start to shame spiral again. Of course that's going to happen. It's wired into your brain. Or the lack of chemicals, the happy-kept-go-with-all-the-mean, is part of why it happens too. Right? But that perseverance that you have, your tenacity, your humor, you know how to use those things to your advantage in other areas of your life. Let's apply them here too. Okay, so I just gave you seven, seven, seven. Sometimes I get excited and I talk too fast and then I don't understand what I'm saying. But I just gave you seven or eight different ways to fight shame in your life.

Caitlin Kindred: 31:45

If you're an ADHD person, prone to shame spiraling, you're going to separate the morality from the science. Name your shame, rewrite your story, expect respect from others and yourself. You're going to find your people. You're going to create some systems that help you prevent shame and you're going to practice that shamelessness, and then you're going to keep trying, okay, so remember that shame thrives in isolation and feeling alone, and the more alone you feel, the more shame you have. You're not alone, though, if you are reach out, because there are lots of people willing to share their experiences, especially ADHDers, and women in particular. If you have an ADHD stereotype that you're tired of hearing, please share it with myself. For Ariella at CKGK Podcast or at Ariella underscore Monty on Instagram. We'd love to hear it and we'll rant about it together.

Ariella Monti: 32:43

Yeah, yeah, I like to rant, I love ranting.

Caitlin Kindred: 32:45

yep, the couple I mean the couples that hate together stay together. Just saying there's like science that backs that up. By the way. Yep, um, next week we're talking about self-care for adhd brains. It's not bubble baths, so stick around for that. Um, until then, repeat after me. I'm not broken, I am different. And shut up, gladys, we'll be right back. Hey y'all. Pov you find a diary exposing forbidden magic and the hot museum caretaker's life depends on you burning it. Roots Ink. The debut novel by Ariella Monti is the fantasy romance for rebels. Use promo code CKANDGK to get 20% off your copy at AriellaMonticom. Again, that's all caps C-K-A-N-D-G-K for 20% off on AriellaMonticom. Get your copy for 20% off on arielamontecom. Get your copy for 20% off today. Okay, we're back. Guess what?

Ariella Monti: 33:59

What, what.

Caitlin Kindred: 34:03

The delayed response is everything, God. Now I don't even know what I was going to say oh my goodness, I seriously don't even know what I was going to say. It doesn't even matter. Silence was literally everything. Guess what? Oh me what. I don't even have anything else to add Like I can't, I think we're going to go, we're just going to wrap this up because I can't. Just I can bring it back no no, it's good, we're good, we're just gonna, we're just, we're gonna see you next time make better choices than me.

Ariella Monti: 34:55

Love you mean it? Bye.