Are You 'Extremely Online'? The Rise of Social Media with Taylor Lorenz

00:00:00 - Caitlin Kindred
It's Tuesday.

I was waiting for a song. No song this week?

I've got my mindset on Tuesday.

Always count on Jenny for a song. We are so glad you're here today. Thank you for joining us. We have an awesome show in store for you. Stick around. We're going to talk Internet history, and we've got an expert here to share. But before we do, let's introduce just everyone on the show. Go ahead, Jen.

00:00:27 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
All right, so with we have Caitlin, and we're going to call her the parking ticket because she's got fine written all over her.

00:00:35 - Caitlin Kindred
Hey. Oh, I did actually put on eyelashes for today.

00:00:40 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, my God.

00:00:41 - Caitlin Kindred
Just mascara. Just mascara. Okay.

00:00:44 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I was going to say wow.

00:00:45 - Caitlin Kindred
But I will say I have had to put that stuff on recently because the other day my son goes, mom, are you going to put on your eyelashes? Because you always look beautiful, but you look more beautiful when you have your eyelashes on. I'm like, really? He's the reason I have Botox, because of the lines on my you know, I'll take the fine compliment today since I actually do have makeup on, but that's Jenny. She's my good looking, elegant baby, so it's such a weird compliment. Okay.

00:01:23 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Elegant baby turtle. Like, I have this picture of the turtle, like, wearing a bonnet that has diamonds on it.

00:01:28 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay, I wasn't going bonnet, but okay, like baby bonnet. Oh, I was thinking, like, not hair protection. No, no, that's the one I wear to keep the curls. Okay. I do wear bonnet. Okay. And you might hear another voice in the background. That's because we also have Taylor Lawrence on the show, author of the new and already celebrated book Extremely Online the Untold Story of Fame, Influence, and Power on the Internet. And she is our this is ridiculous, too. I'm sorry. I apologize in advance. Taylor, she is our fluorescent light bulb of truth for all online. Good. That's good. Random. So random. I can't it's so weird.

00:02:12 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I love it.

00:02:12 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Taylor, feel free to add that to your email signature.

00:02:16 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, yeah, for sure.

00:02:18 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I'll be updating all my BIOS.

00:02:19 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. There you go. Perfect. Love it, love it, love it. So, just so you know, this is nepotism at its finest. Taylor and I actually met at Cu. We were in the same sorority. We lived in the same house. And I don't know if you remember this, but I moved into your old apartment on the hill.

00:02:36 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, yeah.

00:02:37 - Caitlin Kindred
So we had the same roommate. Oh, my God. Yes. And I actually just went up to see you over the summer. We took our son there and we walked past the house and I was like, hey, there's our old apartment. It was wild. It's so weird.

00:02:52 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
But I have a picture.

00:02:54 - Caitlin Kindred
You do?

00:02:55 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I have a picture in front of that house, actually. Oh, do you? And at the time, I think something was happening to it. But it had all these caution signs.

00:03:01 - Caitlin Kindred
All over it, like, for a while. So that's why Taylor's here. But also, we're just so excited to just have read part of your book already. It's so good, you guys. We're going to get more into that, but before we do, let's do our circle time.

00:03:19 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
All right, it's time. Sit crisscross applesauce around the carpet. We're going to tell stories.

00:03:23 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay.

00:03:24 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
The first one I have to talk about is what I'm currently obsessed with.

00:03:27 - Caitlin Kindred
Do it.

00:03:28 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
The podcast called Sold a story. Okay, stop me if you already know about this.

00:03:34 - Caitlin Kindred
I do not.

00:03:35 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay. This is the investigative research about the debate between whole language reading and phonics reading instruction.

00:03:46 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, are we talking the science of reading debate?

00:03:49 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
We are talking science of reading. It's, like, six episodes that I binged in two days because it is so riveting, and not just as an educator, but as a parent. As a parent of a child who has dyslexia, it is so interesting that for years, the American education system, including teacher training, ignored the science of phonics to go with language. Yeah, I have goosebumps talking about it, y'all. It is so interesting.

00:04:22 - Caitlin Kindred
It's all that anyone is talking about right now. There was that whole research that just came out last year that was like, you guys, we've been doing it wrong for years. And it's fascinating.

00:04:32 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Not just, We've been doing it wrong for years, but Fauntus and Pinell, who was basically the Jesus of teaching reading. These two women knew about this research and still promoted their program.

00:04:45 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. And still pushed it. Yeah. It's so disheartening. And I hope that we can move in the right direction, because there's so many things that need to be fixed here.

00:04:56 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yes.

00:04:56 - Caitlin Kindred
We're behind in reading for a reason. All right, well, now I'm sold. I got to go listen to it. I'll add it to my list.

00:05:02 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I stayed up late to listen to.

00:05:05 - Caitlin Kindred
It on a school night.

00:05:07 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I did.

00:05:08 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay. It's two.

00:05:09 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I need to go to bed. It's 02:00.

00:05:12 - Caitlin Kindred
Okay. Yes.

00:05:13 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
That's how intense this is.

00:05:16 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
No, I'm writing this down right now. I'm severely dyslexic, and I want to.

00:05:22 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Listen to yes, you yes, you do. So my daughter Abby just finished academic language therapy in the spring. The whole time that she was working with this certified therapist, I kept saying, this sounds like it's just you're teaching the science of our language. You're really working on the sounds and decoding and learning about how this blend always makes this sound, except here, here, and here. And I just thought everyone should learn to read this way. Well, the science says that.

00:05:52 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, it turns out everyone really should be learning to read that way. Yeah. Wow.

00:05:56 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay, I'm done soapbox. I'm stepping down.

00:05:59 - Caitlin Kindred
Well, yours is good because mine is once again a product, because apparently I'm the most materialistic person ever.

00:06:07 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Last week, my obsession was a cruise ship you could live on.

00:06:10 - Caitlin Kindred
That's true. You did talk about what is it called? The world.

00:06:13 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
The world residential yacht.

00:06:15 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, that's what it is. The world. Okay. Yeah. So you remember pomade when pomade was the rage for a while, when we were all doing hair and everyone moved away from gel and went into pomade? Yeah.

00:06:24 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
My husband was very into it to get that wave that he has.

00:06:29 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.

00:06:29 - Caitlin Kindred
You had to do the boy hair thing. Yeah. So it was never a thing that I could really get into. I don't have the kind of hair that needed pomade. It wasn't a style that I ever whatever. So apparently they make pomade in a stick form, though, and it comes in a stick. And when you're putting your hair up in a ponytail or whatever, you can use this wax stick to rub the flyaways in, which is good, because I have all these little baby hairs that stick out on the side, and you can use it to do the super cool, very trendy, slicked back hairstyles. Yes. Yes. And I did not know this was a thing.

00:07:07 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.

00:07:08 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Now I have to ask you a question. Is it purple and then Dries.

00:07:11 - Caitlin Kindred
Clear? No, mine is clear.

00:07:13 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I was saying it sounds like something made by Elmer's Glue stick.

00:07:17 - Caitlin Kindred
It does sound like that. And it sort of looks like Elmer's Glue stick. I'm not going to no, I just I take the stick, I use it, and I smooth it on my baby hairs on the side, and they actually don't pop out. And mine are it's it's an extra special look these days when they stick out really far like this, and they've never grown, they've always just been the same length, and they stick out further after having a baby. So it's really nice to be able to slick them back a little, know? So highly recommend. Look up wax stick on your favorite online A to Z store and you'll find a bunch of them. That's it. Taylor, do you have an obsession right now?

00:07:54 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
It's going to be hard to top that, because I'm thinking I always have those flyaways. I literally lie down on the back of my bed and put my hair back when I'm doing my ponytail to make sure it all goes back. Yeah. So you can't really see her. But I started buying ten foot long iPhone cords, chargers, iPhone charger. Every charging cord should be 10ft or 12ft. It's such a game changer because you never before I was always too tethered to the phone, my phone, and I just started buying always the ten foot ones, and it's just great. And if you have to plug it in at a Starbucks or something, sometimes your phone's dying. You have to plug it in some random place. You don't have to sit next to the charger. I'm telling you, just yeah, all charging cables should be 10ft.

00:08:43 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I am imagining rolling over in the bed.

00:08:47 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yes.

00:08:48 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I am imagining being in the backseat of the car. Like all of these things, new worlds are opening to me.

00:08:56 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
It has given me so much freedom. I was just cooking the other day, and I had the recipe on my phone, and I used to have to go over to where the charger? And I just pulled it out. It's just so great. It's so great.

00:09:09 - Caitlin Kindred
That's smart. I tend to dislike extra cord length. I have a thing about needing cords to not be just dangling everywhere. I don't like how it looks, but I also am like, man, I really need my phone to be off the dock right now. No, I got to figure out a comp. But I like this idea. I could always unplug it and then put the cord away. That's the way to get rid of it.

00:09:34 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I got these little velcro things.

00:09:36 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes, there it is.

00:09:37 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
You just wrap it so that it doesn't look the cords are not loose all over my house. But it's just so great because I'm always in that situation, too, where it's dying right when I need it.

00:09:49 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, no, that's a great idea.

00:09:51 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
If dogs could talk, do you think they would ask for ten foot leashes?

00:09:55 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, yeah, I think they'd have a lot of feedback.

00:09:58 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.

00:10:01 - Caitlin Kindred
Probably. That's great.

00:10:04 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay, here comes my favorite part of the show. Maybe not this week because we have such an interesting guest, but this is the gem of the week. This is your chance to either laugh with me or at me at something that happened to me. This time, it's with me.

00:10:17 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay.

00:10:17 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
We had a buddy in from out of town, and we were trying to decide where we could go for a family dinner with this friend, and we said, oh, what if we went to the rotating sushi bar? For those of you who are not familiar, this is a restaurant where you sit at a table and the sushi comes by in a conveyor belt around the restaurant, and you can just take right off the conveyor belt and they charge you by the plate kit. My four year old has never been to that, and he looks at us deadpan. I think that would make me vomit.

00:10:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh.

00:10:49 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Because he thought the restaurant rotated.

00:10:56 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, he's not wrong. If that's how it works, I probably would get sick too. But no, you're not spinning around in a circle and eating fish, man. What little one uses that word? That's how you know, his parents use professional and authentic science language all the time around. Oh.

00:11:19 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
We also say Ralph and upchuck.

00:11:21 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, you have to, but otherwise, where else is he going to learn those words? That's cool, but I love that he said that's. So sweet. What a sweet little boy. I disappointed my son yesterday. Oh, he has a Nintendo Switch. And we did that because we wanted to be able to vet his device usage, right? Like, this way, we know what he's playing and we know what he's being exposed to. So a big favorite at our house, as many people's houses, is Mario Kart, and probably has been since the N 64, right? Like, since it really became super cool to play Mario Kart. And with Super Mario being in the movies and all those things, it's become a big deal at our house. Shout out Rainbow Road, right. And Princess Peach for being quite the baddie. I mean, who knew, right? Okay, that said, he wanted to play Mario Kart with me yesterday. And he goes, mom, do you know how to play Mario Kart? Like, basically, are you sure you're ready for this? And I was like, yeah, I think I know how to play. And I whooped his butt in raise yesterday, and he just looked at me like, you deserve the trophy today. And then he goes, I really thought I was going to be better than you at this, but I wasn't. And I am disappointed with we don't I don't let people just it's not in my nature to just let even if he's seven, I just don't do that. So my bad. But, like, no, I felt good about it. I came in first in every.

00:13:05 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
John also plays that way with our kids, right?

00:13:08 - Caitlin Kindred
Like, if they're playing food, got to learn they are not going to score.

00:13:11 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
If they're playing air hockey, they're probably going to have their knuckles bleeding by how hard he hits the puck.

00:13:15 - Caitlin Kindred
That's me too.

00:13:17 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
And when I was growing up, there was an article about Jr. Who was a very famous baseball player.

00:13:24 - Caitlin Kindred
Baseball player, yes. Yes.

00:13:25 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
He actually broke Lou Gehrig's streak of how many games he played in a row. And he was on the Orioles, which was my dad's team. And there was this article about him raising his kids that he did not let his kids win. And when my mom was growing up, the rule was let the baby win.

00:13:41 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, exactly.

00:13:42 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
And so there was this big debate in our house about, is Cal Ripken kind? Is he raising his children the right way? And now I live in this Cal Ripken house of like no, you don't.

00:13:53 - Caitlin Kindred
Let no, I mean, I might let you score in, like, when I play foosball. I'm also weirdly good at like, I had a lot of practice when I was a kid, but I'm weirdly good at this game, and I surprised everybody by showing them my skills fairly recently. But I will play, like, one handed with my son, or I'll only use the back two handles and not the front. Like, I will do whatever I can to help it along, but I'll still score with the still. I will still work. So it is what it is. So when I beat him in Mario Kart, he really was just like, I did not see that.

00:14:35 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oops.

00:14:37 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, well, that's my gem. Taylor, do you have one? Anything cool happened recently?

00:14:42 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, well, I have to say the coolest thing that happened to me, which is I got I live in La. So as a journalist in La. Sometimes you get invited to just random things. And I got invited to this luncheon at Kathy Griffin's house with all these celebrities. It was in honor of this influencer who I kind of know. She's like a TikTok content creator and yeah. So I went to this Malibu she has this Malibu mansion overlooking the water.

00:15:11 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, my gosh.

00:15:13 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
It was like Margaret Cho was there and Rosie O'Donnell. And it was just so crazy. And I was just like, where am? Like, this is so crazy. And then I had to drive back to my shitty little cool.

00:15:29 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
So that was really yes.

00:15:33 - Caitlin Kindred
And now reality sets back in as, oh, man. So I saw those pictures and I was like, this is nuts. And I sent the picture to Jenny, and I was like, this is on Kathy Griffin's Instagram feed. And she's like, oh, yeah, that's cool. And I was, no, no, understand me. I sent her a screenshot of you circled. And I was like, this is Taylor. And she's.

00:15:58 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Died. I died.

00:16:00 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:16:01 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, my gosh.

00:16:03 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. I was like, relook look one more time. Like, this is yes, there's all of these amazing people in this picture, and yes, I'm these outfits. And then randomly me. I thought it was awesome. People are like, who is that? No, who is that? I don't know about her.

00:16:21 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I need to figure her out. Yeah, if this chick's hanging out with all of them, she's probably pretty famous too.

00:16:28 - Caitlin Kindred
And now she's on our show. So kind of a big deal. No pressure on us to get anything right this time or anything like that, but whatever. All right, let's take a break. We'll be right back. All right, we're back, everyone, and we're going to start our interview with Taylor. But before we do, I want to make sure that we have the official bio read out. So just so we're all aware of how big a deal this really is for us to have her on the show. Taylor, and you as a oh, yes, yes, very much. And you as a listener. Taylor is a technology columnist for the Washington Post business section. She covers online culture. Previously, she was a technology reporter for the New York Times business section. She's been with the Atlantic and the Daily Beast. Her writing has appeared in New York Magazine, Rolling Stone, Outside Magazine, Fast Company, and more. I see her all the time on CNN, MSNBC. NBC, BBC. She's been a 2019 night visiting Neiman fellow at Harvard University. She's a former affiliate at Harvard's Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society. I can't even believe there's so much more.

00:17:37 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I know.

00:17:38 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
No, you don't have to read the.

00:17:39 - Caitlin Kindred
Whole I feel so this one is, oh, my gosh.

00:17:42 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
No, you wear this one. Reading this pride. There's nothing to be embarrassed about. You earned all of this. No one handed it to you.

00:17:50 - Caitlin Kindred
I mean, named Fortune's 40 under 40 list of Leaders in Media and entertainment in 2020. I will stop there. But there's so many more things you can follow at Taylor Lawrence on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube for the best updates on what's going on in media and entertainment. Welcome, Taylor. We are so glad to have you here on the show. I cannot believe you're here right now.

00:18:11 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
This is so no, thank you for having me. This is so fun.

00:18:15 - Caitlin Kindred
We want to get right into the book because this is clearly your baby. It's so special. And like, I think Jenny and I both approach this very teachery. So it's probably the things that come to mind, but also just things that really struck us. And I'm going to let Jenny lead with her first question because I feel like it's a good one.

00:18:41 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay.

00:18:41 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
So first off, let me tell you, I devour nonfiction. This is so fun to read. The name of the book is extremely online and Taylor, I kind of took it as like, this is the history of my Internet experience, right?

00:18:57 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.

00:18:59 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
So as I'm reading, I am resonating with a lot of quotes, like just connecting. And the first one that really spoke to me was, when you're talking about mommy bloggers, you write the sentence, the emergence of mommy blogs was a form of liberation for women. Yeah, I remember 2011, I was a stay at home mom and I had a newborn baby. I was bored out of my mind and living on a very small stay at home mom budget. And I had a bobby blog.

00:19:35 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
No way.

00:19:36 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes, I said the same thing.

00:19:39 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Was it popular?

00:19:40 - Caitlin Kindred
No.

00:19:41 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Was it successful? No, but it was cathartic. It was great to find my people and to write about my space. So right away I thought this was liberating for me. Being stay at home mom is so hard. Being a working mom also very hard, but at least as a working mom, I connect with adults during the day. So I loved having my little mommy blog, even if it was just a project for myself.

00:20:08 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
That's so amazing. Yeah, it was so fun to go back and read all of these blogs. My book really covers too, from the early, early 2000s, that whole rise. And yeah, it's so fun to go back and read. And also just how crazy the women's media landscape was. I was reading old magazines from that late 90s, early 2000s era and the women's media back then was so crazy. I know we're all reexamining sort of like the ODS now, but it was just so paternalistic towards women and it was just this very glossy view of motherhood that was so unrealistic, so crazy to read. I was reading something of like it was just like, prepare your child's lunch. I was like, well, who is this for? This is so just all of these magazines were so unrealistic. So I see why people gravitated towards that boom in mommy blogging, because the mommy blogs were like, okay, let's talk about let's Get Real, because there's like.

00:21:11 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I had to change two blowouts at Target today, and I walked out with a naked baby liberating to read that and have someone say, yes, this is my life.

00:21:23 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, there's still a little bit of that culture that's remaining too. I feel like Pinterest in particular really kind of it flips. Yeah. I think there's that whole movement towards the perfect kids party. And you see these videos of women preparing these gorgeous lunches for their kids and then the stitch with the woman who's like, I'm just going to grab this bag of chips and throw it into a bag and fold it up and call it good. There is still a lot of that feeling out there. But I feel like the mommy blog in general has really kind of taken a dive and it's been replaced by these other different forms of media. It's interesting.

00:22:07 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah. Well, I talk a little bit about this and you could literally write like a whole book on and there actually is this book called Mom fluenced, which is all about it's a good book. It's also just like all about kind of like the women's mom influencer world. But yeah, this mommy blogs were so raw and so real and so they talked a lot about too, like, addiction and coping mechanisms and trauma. And then you had Instagram and Pinterest come along and it got very visual and very filters appeared. Yeah. And it kind of flipped back to that magazine version of Motherhood. And yes, now it's kind of just a mix of everything.

00:22:45 - Caitlin Kindred
But you can get inspired, but also when it fails, you feel like you're not alone in that failure. Right. That's the way that I'm kind of looking at it now is like, okay, I tried and cake or not cake. Right. It clearly doesn't look like Cookie Monster, but that's okay because neither does this lady's Sonic Cake and this other party, whatever. Okay. In that sense.

00:23:14 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
So that brings me to the next quote that really connected with me.

00:23:17 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay.

00:23:18 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
You're talking about VidCon in 2010.

00:23:21 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, goodness.

00:23:22 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
And you said the barrier between fans and stars was porous in a way that it isn't anymore. The fame achieved by early content creators was a kind of fame that kept them down to earth. Okay, so I read this and then I immediately thought of a short video, real TikTok, whatever. We're going to call this clip of someone making fun of this influence culture of like oh, I wake up at 05:00 a.m and I look perfect and then I work out for two and a half hours and then I eat these rare organic fruits from the mountains of Tibet and I close my day with 6 hours of outdoor yoga. And the lady is, like, making fun of this culture, thinking, yes, there are people out there who have completely taken their feet off the planet, and their heads are so in the clouds. It was too funny that I read that line the same week I saw this video.

00:24:17 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yes. Oh, my God. I love that. It's so real and yeah, it's just so funny, too, to think of how the Internet has changed. I mean, so much of my book is sort of like the emergence of this new type of fame and what happened and how it all kind of went off the rails, too, so oh, my gosh. I have to watch that TikTok.

00:24:35 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
It starts with her getting out of bed and putting on makeup, then getting back in the bed and practice waking up enough times to where she looks pretty.

00:24:45 - Caitlin Kindred
Stop. I can't. The Get Ready with Me videos are really it's a whole new level of why. And why are they successful? I don't know. Because I don't really need to see how you have your perfect curls. That came with that head wrap.

00:25:03 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, that thing is such a scam.

00:25:04 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, is it?

00:25:05 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I am so glad to hear this because I've wanted it for so long.

00:25:09 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
No, it's worthless. Trust me. I've had that thing. Okay, so we're talking about the tube thing.

00:25:14 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes.

00:25:16 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
It's like a pool noodle. For your hair.

00:25:18 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yes, I have not only one, I have two of them because the first one I bought, and it made my hair look so bad, I thought, well, maybe I just bought the wrong one. I bought another one. No, it gives you this weird if you have straight hair. I have very straight hair.

00:25:32 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Me too.

00:25:33 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
It doesn't curl at all. It just curls kind of like parts of it so it looks so janky, I can't even explain because you have to twist it around, right. And so it's like this weird thing where parts of your hair because you're having bigger twists I don't know how to scrape it just looks like garbage. Trust me. It might look good when these influencers take it out for a minute, but I swear to God that they're like, touching it up with curling course. Of course.

00:25:59 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:26:00 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Just go back in time and do the pink foam rollers like Jan Brady.

00:26:04 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes, those work.

00:26:06 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I used to have those.

00:26:07 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. I've also seen the girls doing the finger curls that's amazing. Where they're just like this, and they pin it up and it somehow stays. I don't know how you could sleep in that, though, because I feel like it would get flattened.

00:26:18 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
But, yeah, I can't sleep with anything. It was hard. I mean, that was like, the beauty of that pool. Noodle. Things that oh, the back is not on the back of my head. That's why it makes the back of your head totally flat. That's why it looks so weird. It's because it doesn't curl that back part really well.

00:26:32 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
And they never show the back of your hair in those videos.

00:26:35 - Caitlin Kindred
No.

00:26:37 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
You look like a friar.

00:26:39 - Caitlin Kindred
Like you have.

00:26:42 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Back.

00:26:42 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes.

00:26:43 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Like if I wanted to, I could marry Juliet and Romeo in secret.

00:26:47 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, right.

00:26:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Exactly.

00:26:48 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
The hairstyle that you're going to get.

00:26:50 - Caitlin Kindred
That's great.

00:26:52 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay, so from that, talking about these kinds of videos that show up recently, the other quote that I wanted to talk about was talking about the Amazon influencers or the partners. And you said with more people than ever shopping online during the Pandemic, social media was minting new influencers faster than the brands could keep up. I have a friend that I was in a Bible study with. Like, I was close with this girl. She is one of these Walmart target Amazon partners and she started her business before the Pandemic but it exploded in 2020. But yeah, she's like, oh, shop with me at Walmart. Here's my newest target haul. That's what she does.

00:27:36 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Have you ever bought anything from her? Oh my God.

00:27:41 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah.

00:27:42 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
It's so crazy. Yeah. I think the rise of affiliate marketing has just taken mean. Everyone has a code now for like and even just the most niche creators.

00:27:59 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Check out my LTK.

00:28:01 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, I talk a lot about the rise of rewards. I mean, Amber Venn's box, to be fair, she was so ahead of her time. She's the one that founded Reward style that made sort of like Instagram posts shoppable and like I know someone who.

00:28:16 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Makes a living doing this.

00:28:17 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, and you can make a good.

00:28:21 - Caitlin Kindred
There'S. I forget her name. I think her name is Catherine Benson. She's the one who's on TikTok doing she started the whole restocking. That was a big thing and I was really into it for a little while. She goes in and she'll restock her kids little refrigerator. She bought a new house. This woman was like, I don't know if it's because they just have a family where they've been saving for a long time. All I know is that this woman gets sent products all the time to try out to restock, to clean her house, to do all of these things. And I'm like, all she's doing is refilling downey in a bottle. That's what she's doing. And for whatever reason, this culture of ASMR, I need to see all my products in their beautiful packaging as opposed to the Tide bottle is not appropriate anymore. And I've totally fallen victim to it. I'm like, no, my pantry has these clear containers. It's last in, first out. But it's a weird thing and it's totally because of people being home and needing to restock stuff and getting satisfaction out of doing it that way. It's absolutely connected to the Pandemic and online shopping.

00:29:35 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I made. A snack basket.

00:29:38 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Really?

00:29:39 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
That's like, as far as I've gotten into. Organization is not my skill set.

00:29:46 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Mine either. I don't know if you can see behind me the mess.

00:29:49 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, man, that's why this cabinet and.

00:29:54 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I was like, oh, I'll make a basket that my kids can help themselves to.

00:29:58 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, I have a whole section in my pantry where if he needs to get it out, he just goes and gets it. But that was inspired by those videos. Wild. So I had similar feelings, but I'm glad that mine are a little different here. But I did three takeaways that resonated with me. My first one was just all of this happened in front of us. This was millennials in particular. I don't know about you guys, but I had dial up Internet when I was later on in high school. Right? That's how we started, with the AOL disks and the screaming noise, right. And then I didn't get Ethernet until I went to college, and it was wired Ethernet, but it was a huge deal that it was wired Ethernet in every room. And now we watched iPhones come out, but this is all ours.

00:30:51 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
This is my life.

00:30:53 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, I remember the first YouTube video that I watched. I was in college. I personally remember when Facebook came to our school, because it wasn't out at every college yet, and you were like, oh, I bought these big schools.

00:31:05 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, well, remember, Cu was early, too. They were like, onboarding all these big state schools after the Ivy Leagues, right? So we got it really early. And I remember that moment. I remember adding everyone in my classes.

00:31:21 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes, I did, too. And I remember getting excited when I had my AOL Messenger, because you didn't need AOL anymore, you could just have Aim Messenger and your Away message and all of these things at MySpace. I'm just like, this was my coming of age story.

00:31:40 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yes. Oh, my gosh, what a great way to sum it up.

00:31:43 - Caitlin Kindred
That was probably the biggest thing for me out of this whole thing, is just knowing this is truly my life. My coming of age story.

00:31:50 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
So good.

00:31:51 - Caitlin Kindred
From that other perspective, it was amazing. And I loved being able to go, oh, man, I remember that. I remember that. It's wild. But the other thing that I kept coming back to is I work in marketing now. I write content all the time, primarily, like, longer form blog, things like that, for companies. But if I tell someone that I write content, they immediately go, oh, you're a content creator. Right. And there's this negative connotation that comes with that. I feel like when I hear that term, my mind I don't know how big of a new girl fan you are, but when Schmidt's like youths and he's all mad about young people, that's where my mind goes when I hear it's. So especially people our age and older, I think associate that term with TikTok dances and things like that, that we all were like, TikTok, isn't that a song by Kesha? What is this thing? Right? As opposed to the people on there that are doing real work. Like, I think about Casey Davis and how real she is about her ADHD mom life and about Michael Vaughn, who's the guy who does World he's the World Shaker account on TikTok who talked about how he helps his wife before he goes out of town. He recently went viral on Motherly and a few other sites. Or there's a couple other accounts that I really love at Team Two. Moms is a really good one. They're normalizing. That LGBTQ raising children lifestyle. I personally love Mamadoo and his animal facts. He's, like, my favorite. Just how he talks about how he's like, oh, hippos are awesome, but they will kill you kind of content. There's some real value to being a content creator, but yet it has this icky feel to it. And I'm just curious about your thoughts on that.

00:33:38 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, I will say so much of what people say about content creators and influencers is actually kind of like it goes back to the framing. And I talk about this a lot in my book. This industry was really built by women and sort of from mommy bloggers, just like, a lot of young women are really who created the content creator industry a lot of times because they were shut out of the labor market or they wanted flexible work, or they're just sort of creative. And I think that a lot of sort of stereotypes that we've all absorbed about the content creator industry are due to the framing of it in the media. Especially when it was sort of first starting, because it was seen as this very silly thing, this very like, oh, that's not real work, or oh, it's like this sort of like soft labor where you're like, oh, you're just taking selfies of yourself and putting it on the Internet.

00:34:28 - Caitlin Kindred
You're so self absorbed.

00:34:30 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, it was so funny. I wrote about and this was, like, kind of a little bit mentioned. I think I mentioned it once in the book, but I wrote a longer piece about it recently. It's the ten year anniversary this summer of selfie being the word of the year.

00:34:43 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, wow.

00:34:44 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, my God, you guys, the panic. There's, like, CNN article, Psychology Today article, like, people who take selfies are narcissistic, sociopaths, and just, like, this vitriol about and it was all women. It was like, these self absorbed women taking selfies. And it's so funny because it's totally commonplace now, and no one would ever fit. Like, we all take selfies. But I think it's like there was so much weird, deep, loud media framing, especially on the content creator industry. And of course, we see those examples of the most obnoxious content creators ever. So, of course, we are like, yeah, you're right, you're good. Forget those people. They're so corny. But there's also so many amazing people that also work in this industry, and it's very much real work. Creating content is very much real work. I mean, look, we all have jobs, like any kind of public facing job, too. You're going to have those outliers that kind of give your industry a bad name, you know what I mean? But, yeah, I think the content creator world, it gets a bad rap.

00:35:53 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I wonder if we were to go back in time to the late 80s, early ninety s, and look at the tech boom through the lens of the baby boomer generation, if they would say similar things. Oh, well, you're just so into those computers. They're not going to go anywhere. That's not really important work. Oh, you're the chief dream officer. Well, those things turned into what I'm holding in my hand that could send Amanda Space.

00:36:19 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Have you seen that famous I think it's the Today show, where about the Internet, there's like, yeah, it's it's like.

00:36:29 - Caitlin Kindred
Katie Kirk and what's his name, brian Gumbel, who are sitting there saying, like, is it the Internet? Is it the like, yeah, I know exactly the one you're talking about. I watched it fairly recently where they're like, how do we even do what? Is this going to take off?

00:36:43 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, like, are people going to use this? People are not going to use this.

00:36:47 - Caitlin Kindred
It's so funny to watch because you're like, wild. You guys sound so silly, so out of touch. And that's something that I keep thinking about, too, with you're saying the baby boomer generation, the whole fight against TikTok and bike dance and all that is fascinating to me. But watching these much older government figures, leaders say things like that literally sound like, does the Internet come from the moon? Right? Like, these connect to WiFi, right? It's a real question. And how out of touch are these people? And many of them may not live another 20 years to look back and go, wow, I was really off on that one. But I don't even think they realize how important these things are and how important the creator environment I mean, maybe in a sense they do. If they're trying to ban it, right? If they're trying to get it out.

00:37:42 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Of well, they don't, though, because that's completely a political thing. If they actually cared about data privacy, which, by the way, they should, we definitely need comprehensive data privacy reform in this. Like, I think that's kind of actually, most people agree with, like, no matter what side of the aisle you're on, you're right. But they don't care about that. They just want to ban an app. It's like, okay, you ban TikTok, guess what? China can still buy our data from a third party Facebook vendor. We have absolutely no laws protecting data, unlike Europe and other places. So let's get some laws protecting our data. That could protect us from all apps because TikTok's not even remotely the only Chinese app that's popular these huge gaming. I mean, gaming is the number one form of entertainment, and half the gaming companies are owned by China, too. Who knows what kind of data we need? Data privacy protected as a whole. This is like because I hate this whole, like, oh, let's ban this one random app. That it's know, if you spend time on it's, they're not showing you Chinese propaganda videos. You're getting like, you know, get ready with.

00:38:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Know it depends on which corner of TikTok you end up in. Right? Like mine is get ready with me videos. The girl who gets ready while she's lip syncing rap songs. I forget her name, but she's really funny. And then pandas falling off of trees and stuff. Like, Mine's the most random, ridiculous stuff ever. You can also go into deep corners that are super political on either side. Right. And I think that it's a little bit of a liberal media sort of target in that sense. But it is really interesting that it all comes from this ick around creator culture and how it started. I forget her name, but the name of the girl that you talked about first in the book, who was getting invited to party, and she was like an e celebrity and all of these things that she got, like, online hate, and she's still traumatized by all of.

00:39:46 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
This stuff that Julia Allison. Thank you.

00:39:48 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes, I wanted to say Allison something.

00:39:50 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
But no, she totally quit the Internet. Her story is wild because she was so ahead of her time.

00:39:55 - Caitlin Kindred
Absolutely. She was the first, right? Like one of the first creators ever. And it's just really fascinating. The DKNY story is fascinating. I love all of that. So great. And yet you're right. It's all women doing this. And it's a very interesting take to say that the patriarchy is part of the issue with the creator. Ick.

00:40:16 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I kind of tie it to in the late ninety s and early 2000s, there was a lot of debate about America's economy being service based and that we weren't producing anymore. And it's really because manufacturing costs less in places where there's less labor laws.

00:40:36 - Caitlin Kindred
Like we all know this is not.

00:40:37 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
A secret, but now the United States is the leader in idea content, in building this new branch of media. So maybe we have moved away from a service based economy, but just in a new realm.

00:40:52 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
That's so interesting. I've never thought of it that way, but yeah, there's a reason that the content creator influencer industry is so American and such a uniquely American phenomenon. Obviously it exists in Asia, especially in other countries, but it's so ingrained in American culture in a way that it's really not in other. And I think it's because we have this hyper, hyper individualistic society. And it's also like there was this really good writer that wrote this piece, and I have to get his name, but he wrote about sort of how this creator understood, revived the American dream. Because as you're talking about, by the late 90s, there's all this income disparity, class mobility is not really there. And so it was like this notion of like, oh, can anybody make it in America anymore? And when the Internet and social media came, they sell this idea of, like, anyone can make it. Just work hard enough. You could be the next big thing. So it's just kind of interesting to think about it in the frame of that American.

00:41:49 - Caitlin Kindred
That is nuts.

00:41:50 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I had a physical response to that. I could feel the breath leave my lungs. Yes, this is accessible and attainable for all.

00:42:00 - Caitlin Kindred
Exactly. When you think about how people are literally making a complete living on restocking, dryer sheets in an aesthetically pleasing container. I'm not kidding. These are things people are doing. That is the American dream. I'm putting in a little bit of work. Yes, I'm filming my beautiful nails as I do this, but also I'm making money from it, and I've done enough to feed my family and more. That's real. That's absolutely true.

00:42:30 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
My ideas and my identity are worth something.

00:42:33 - Caitlin Kindred
Are worth something.

00:42:35 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah. I would say the downside to it is it's selling this dream, but there's also, like, the flip side to it, which is that this job has absolutely no labor protections, like no health care. It's very hard to get health care. Very hard to get. So there's all these challenges as well. And of course, not everyone can make it online in here. So it is so much harder than you think. But anyway, it's just all very interesting, kind of how things have evolved.

00:42:59 - Caitlin Kindred
I mean, completely agree with the negatives that you're talking about there. But when you're someone who is aspiring to be that, you don't think about those negative things. You're just thinking, there's my downey. I'm pouring it into this thing, and now I've restocked my snack drawer and I can film that and I can make money from it. And that's all you're seeing. It's that whole Instagram glossiness all over again. Right. Just in a different format. It's fascinating. I have to just ask, give me a big AHA that you had. It sounds like this whole it's rooted in the patriarchy thing is a very interesting AHA that you had. But give me another one. I'm really.

00:43:38 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, it was interesting how much of this industry was built by women. I also was just so interested in the relationship between the platforms because so many tech books, most tech books are written through the lens of a single platform. We have so many Facebook books, but the YouTube book, the Instagram book, and I wanted to write a book that zoomed out a little bit. And just writing the book, I wanted to go back and shake the founders of vine and other platforms and be like, no, you guys are you got it. And it's just like these mistakes that these Silicon Valley CEOs make that now, with hindsight, you're like, that was so stupid. You didn't have to kill vine. You didn't have to do all that. And just the different models of social media and which ones went out. I talk about the war between Facebook and MySpace and kind of why this Facebook model went out when it did. And I don't know, it's really interesting to see those interplay between the companies.

00:44:34 - Caitlin Kindred
I loved that part. That was fascinating. And the way that you compared what MySpace was and how it contributed to the rise of Facebook. It was so interesting. And it brought me back to this tweet that I saw fairly recently of a kid who was like, how come Facebook doesn't let you personalize your page where you could play songs as soon as you get here? That'd be so cool. And I was like, my space. That's my space. You really want us to go back to my so it was so interesting to see that perspective. And again, that relationship between all them I thought was really interesting. Really great. Okay, I have some rapid fire questions for you. Just a few. Okay, the first one is just what's your take on Twitter? What's next? Is Threads going to take it over? I've seen some interesting things that you've put out there, and I think you said that you mentioned that another journalist in the process, but about how the goal has never been to make Twitter great. It's been to kind of dismantle Twitter piece by you. So tell me about that.

00:45:42 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Yeah, elon Musk does not want of his goal with Twitter is a political one. He wants to push a very specific ideology, and he will do anything to do that. So he is kicking off all the journalists, banning people he doesn't like. There's no tech CEO that's more anti free speech than Elon. I mean, it's crazy, these arbitrary, bans, the content moderation happening there. Twitter used to actually be a very free platform. It was the one platform where you could really share so much. I mean, it's the only social platform you could share. Nudity. It was just a lot of twitter was great in a lot of ways, very broken in other ways. But Elon's taken over and just kicked off a lot of LGBTQ people. He just wants to use it to push a political ideology. And that's too bad because he is definitely killing the platform. It's worth, I think Morgan Stanley said less than 30% of what he bought it for. Wow. He has billions to burn. He's one of the richest men in the world, so he doesn't matter to him. And also, you know, the he has so much Saudi Arabian money that's backing Twitter, which also terrifies me. I'm like, why does the government take.

00:46:55 - Caitlin Kindred
A look at that. Why is that?

00:46:56 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Okay?

00:46:56 - Caitlin Kindred
Right?

00:46:57 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Totally fine. It's scary anyway. But yeah, I think Twitter's dead and gone. I don't really use Twitter myself very much, aside from sort of like, keeping up with Non tech news. It's just not a good place for journalism anymore. I'm into threads, I have to say. I don't know if it'll take off, but I'm having fun on there. There's a lot of other journalists and there's a lot of people on threads that never used Twitter, but I think because it's like, just they have an Instagram, so they just download threads. So I've been using it, and I really like it. It's almost the same as Twitter. It has a few less features, but all the core things are there.

00:47:33 - Caitlin Kindred
I agree. And I think the space is healthier. I don't know about you, but it feels like a less toxic space. People are just so like, oh, my God, it's so great here. And there's no hashtagging, and it just feels like a happy place compared to other spaces on the Internet. So I'm glad that you like it. I think it's fun. This is something that I remember from several years back, but you had thoughts about firefest when it first happened, and I loved that. But now there's another firefest that's happening sometime in the future someplace, and they've already got talent signed up. I have to know your thoughts. Like, you can tell us. Walk us through what you first thought and now your new thoughts on this second one.

00:48:15 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I know, it's so you know, I think just the fact that Billy, who founded I can't remember his last name, but whatever his name is, billy McFarland, I think. I think the fact that Billy McFarland could sort of have the second act and literally defraud so many people and then be able to do it, and I'm sure the second one who know now, it's such a meme, I'm sure it'll be successful, but I think it speaks to this rewarding of grift, which I don't love. It's funny, but it's also like I watched the documentary, one of those documentaries, there was two, and I watched them.

00:48:55 - Caitlin Kindred
Both because, you know, I fascinating.

00:48:58 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
All the people on the island that never got paid and how it destroyed the lives of the locals, and it's just like, that sucks. That sucks. To reward somebody that did such bad stuff and never make those people whole.

00:49:14 - Caitlin Kindred
The environmental damage, there was just tons.

00:49:17 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Of it, so much fallout from that. More than I paid $30,000 and I'm.

00:49:22 - Caitlin Kindred
Eating a cheese sandwich, and I'm traumatized by the fact that I had no place to stay or anything like that. There was trauma that went into the people who attended, but the complete devastation of where it happened, the people, the land, all of it was just horrifying.

00:49:39 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
That's what sucks. It's like if he was doing Fire Fest Two and all the profits were going to go to the local people who he all screwed over. Sure. But it's like this is just a way for him to have a second act and grift, and I just think it shows how we value fame and attention over everything. I don't like it.

00:49:57 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, I'm with you. I think it's kind of one of those things to where people who are buying tickets are like, I just want to see what a dumpster fire this is. Totally. They know that's. What part of it is it's so.

00:50:10 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Funny and ridiculous and I totally want to see how it turns out, but it just makes me so sad for all those local that was like the takeaway for me of watching those films.

00:50:18 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, really awful. Okay, my last question for you. You have ten minutes to kill. What social media app are you on for ten minutes.

00:50:27 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Oh, God. I mean TikTok. It has to be TikTok. Yeah, I just can't go ten minutes. I'll think I'm going on for ten minutes and then it's 10 hours later.

00:50:35 - Caitlin Kindred
Right? It's such a time suck that's for ten minutes I'm like, oh, if I only have ten minutes, maybe I'll check out LinkedIn and see what kind of messages I have there because it's only ten minutes and it's not going to take my attention for more than ten minutes. But if I really want to get lost in my phone, TikTok is the place to be. Yeah, for sure. Oh, my goodness. Taylor, I cannot thank you enough for being here with us today. I know you're so busy and we're just so grateful. But once again, you guys, the book is called Extremely Online the Untold Story of Fame, Influence, and Power on the Internet. You can already preorder it, which is exciting. I've done that. It comes out on October 3, which is Mean Girls Day, just in case anyone aware of that. I love that. I was like, I don't know if she did that on purpose, but I.

00:51:21 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Kind of hope when they told me my pub date, I was like, oh my God, it's October 3 and got it. And I was like, okay, never mind.

00:51:33 - Caitlin Kindred
I would have been like, yes.

00:51:35 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
I've been telling people to remember. I mean, first of all, preorder the whole book thing is such a scam, like the way it works because preorders are like the only thing that count for bestseller lists and stuff. So please preorder. But if you want to get it the day of, it does launch Mean Girls Day, but yeah, preorder.

00:51:50 - Caitlin Kindred
That's awesome. I'm excited for you. I've already got mine preordered. And I got an alert that was like, hey, it's coming to you on this day. And I was like, yeah, I know.

00:52:01 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Excited.

00:52:01 - Caitlin Kindred
So thank you so much for coming today. We're going to have links to places where you can preorder her book in the show notes for today. We'll also make sure that you have links to her profile if you're interested in following. She gives lots of updates on entertainment and industry on all of our channels, so definitely check them out. And again, Taylor, Lawrence, we appreciate you being here today.

00:52:22 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Thanks for having me. This was so fun.

00:52:24 - Caitlin Kindred
Thank you.

00:52:26 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
All right, y'all, get online.

00:52:28 - Caitlin Kindred
Pre order that book because it's a.

00:52:30 - Jenny GK, Taylor Lorenz
Good choice, and we always want you.

00:52:32 - Caitlin Kindred
To make good choices and read it. It's so good. You're going to love it, especially if you're our age. You will just eat this book right up. Okay? Bye.