Stop Relationship Burnout: 1 Simple Question to Create a Fair Division of Labor

00:00:00 - Jenny GK
You don't want to close my eyes I don't want to fall asleep cause I miss you, baby and I don't want to miss Tuesday.

00:00:13 - Caitlin Kindred
I was gonna like, chime in with you because how can you not chime in on that song? But I was like, if I do it, I don't know where she's gonna put the Tuesday. So I can't I don't know where.

00:00:28 - Jenny GK
She'S going to put the Tuesday.

00:00:33 - Caitlin Kindred
It's true. That's exactly what I was thinking, is, where will she put the Tuesday? I don't know. It could have gone on for a while. There's a few places you could have dropped it.

00:00:40 - Jenny GK
Okay, please make that a YouTube short. I don't know where she's going to put the Tuesday.

00:00:47 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, man. Okay, well, we're so glad you're here, everybody. Today we're going to spend some time talking about the mental load and one step that you can take towards a more equitable division of labor in your home. And this is inspired by one of my girlfriends who sent me a message. So we'll get into that in just a few minutes. But first I need to introduce my co host, the beautiful, phenomenal well of ideas, Jenny GK, folks.

00:01:18 - Jenny GK
Oh, thanks. And with me is Caitlin, who we will call Chicago, because she's always a great time. She's full of interesting history. She will blow you away. And sometimes she's on fire.

00:01:37 - Caitlin Kindred
Sometimes she's on fire. Oh my God. Chicago's like, you stop talking about the second city like that. Oh, man, you guys, one day she's going to compare me to like, the Molasses flood and it's going to be like she's slow and she can speak or something. Oh, God. Okay, it's been a while since we recorded, guys, so we've got some giggles to get out. So first though, before we do that, I want to give a shout out to Team Cap Show.

00:02:14 - Jenny GK
So you know this Domo origato Mr. Roboto?

00:02:20 - Caitlin Kindred
No, not at all. Not at all. Cap Show is AI podcasting software that helps with all of the written pieces you need to do for your show. So as we all do now, we're using generative AI to help with all the things, right? So I've been using it to help with just some of the content for our show. Not all of it, but it's a super helpful tool. And they're becoming very popular among the podcasting community. And they actually wrote a review of our show, which is so exciting. They listened to an episode and they wrote a review. So if you have it, this is our call to action to please go in and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. It's super helpful. But thank you to Team Cap show for leaving us. That review is really awesome.

00:03:07 - Jenny GK
So I'm pretty excited you have an idea today for our current obsessions that's different than what we normally do.

00:03:13 - Caitlin Kindred
I know, because what is the best day of the year, folks? It's not treat yourself day. It's prime day. I was sending the meme out to everyone. It's the best day of the year from Parks and Rec when they're doing Treat Yourself fine leather goods. Right? Exactly. So I want to know what are your top three Prime Day purchases? Because as we all know, folks, Jenny is not allowed to shop on Amazon without supervision, but she was able to this year. So I need to know what your top three were.

00:03:46 - Jenny GK
This was my first Prime Day. I texted Caitlin mid morning, and I was like, this is so overwhelming. I don't know what to do.

00:03:51 - Caitlin Kindred
Help me. What do I buy? I'm like tupperware that you need to replace new bedding towels. Think about it in terms of what are some things you actually need? And then I was like, but also, here's the dumb stuff I bought that was just for me, just for fun. So tell me what you bought.

00:04:09 - Jenny GK
So just for me, just for fun, I bought a Matcha set.

00:04:13 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, nice.

00:04:14 - Jenny GK
Okay.

00:04:14 - Caitlin Kindred
Do you like matcha?

00:04:15 - Jenny GK
I love Matcha, and I crave it every once in a while. And right now, this summer, it's like the flavor of the season. And I am going and buying it at a coffee shop. So I got all this stuff to make it at home. The equipment has come in, but not the tea yet, so I'm excited when the tea arrives.

00:04:33 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. Tell me how. I don't really like it. Some people it's like a love it or hate it flavor. And I think there's also a texture part of it that I can't get into. So I'm excited.

00:04:43 - Jenny GK
I'm looking forward to it. I think the whole ritual will be fun.

00:04:46 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. There you go.

00:04:48 - Jenny GK
We also bought reusable water balloons. You might have seen these on the webernet. They're like latex glove kind of material okay. With magnets. And you drop them in a bucket, they fill up and they close on their own with magnets. And then you can throw them. And so no cleanup. Not bad for the environment. I think they're cool.

00:05:10 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. Or like easy cleanup.

00:05:12 - Jenny GK
My kids never get to do pieces. Yeah, my kids never get to do water balloons because of the pieces of latex. Everywhere in the yard.

00:05:19 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, it's gross.

00:05:20 - Jenny GK
It's really bad for the earth. And you can never really pick up all the pieces.

00:05:23 - Caitlin Kindred
Right, exactly.

00:05:24 - Jenny GK
So these ones, it's like a set of 24, and they're reusable, and each kid gets a bucket, and they can keep throwing all day.

00:05:34 - Caitlin Kindred
Perfect.

00:05:34 - Jenny GK
The next of the top three is a smart lock for the front door.

00:05:40 - Caitlin Kindred
You put in a code.

00:05:42 - Jenny GK
So we have a code on the back door, but we're getting one for the front door. I'm so excited. Also, our door handle has kind of been sticky lately, and this will fix that, too, so I'm excited about that.

00:05:54 - Caitlin Kindred
I want one of those, too.

00:05:56 - Jenny GK
The code is going to be 1234.

00:05:59 - Caitlin Kindred
Perfect.

00:05:59 - Jenny GK
There you go.

00:06:00 - Caitlin Kindred
No problems.

00:06:01 - Jenny GK
So I feel like that's a really secure code.

00:06:04 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah, probably. I'm thinking about that for when my child is older and we're having issues of coming home and coming and going as we please. Sort of situations where it might be easier to have a code rather than a key. I don't want to think about lost keys. That gives me anxiety to think about. So I love that idea. That's great. Okay, so my three Amazon Prime day.

00:06:31 - Jenny GK
Yes.

00:06:32 - Caitlin Kindred
Purchases. Okay, so I bought some normal things, like I told you I would, but I bought myself a desk riser so that I can stand up while I work, so I can put my two monitors on it and lift and lower. And then I also bought an underdesk treadmill because I'm finding that when you're teaching, you got up and you walked around all the time. And I don't do that as often as I need to, and I do go for my walk in the morning, but going for a walk in the morning and then sitting for the rest of the day just doesn't feel good at all. I'm noticing I'm much more stiff and all that. So all of my colleagues all have these underdesk. Not all. Most of them have some way to stand up while they're working or work while walking. And so I was like, Just tell me which one to buy. I looked at underdeath treadmills for probably, like, 45 minutes, like, just comparing and saying, oh, well, this one. So I just got a recommendation and did that. So I'm excited for that. But it's Prime Day, and it was a prime item, but it's still not here, and I'm very upset.

00:07:42 - Jenny GK
That's how I feel about my tea.

00:07:43 - Caitlin Kindred
I know I have the little brush.

00:07:45 - Jenny GK
And I'm like, but I can't mix anything with it.

00:07:48 - Caitlin Kindred
This is the problem with Prime Day is that everyone buys on Prime Day, which means Prime Day shipping goes from one or two days to, like, seven. Anyway.

00:07:59 - Jenny GK
Meanwhile, when you buy something from Wayfair, it can take, like, nine months. I still haven't gotten my couch. I bought Memorial Day weekend.

00:08:06 - Caitlin Kindred
That's insane. That's not cool. The other thing that I bought is a new light for when I go on my walkies in the morning. Is it like a no, no, not quite. That nerdy, but it's pretty hardcore. So I'm in Colorado a week or so ago, and my dad was like, do you go for walks early in the morning? I said, yeah, when I go, it's like pitch blackout. He was like, you need something more than just this little wrist. I have a slap bracelet.

00:08:39 - Jenny GK
Like, wrist light. Stop.

00:08:42 - Caitlin Kindred
No, I do, and I have four different colors, but two of the batteries have already died, and it's a pain to replace them. And in the summer, it's a little bit tight, so it gets really sweaty. So I literally will have sweat, like, dripping down my fingers and my forehead. It's so gross.

00:08:58 - Jenny GK
Maybe not so much explanation of that.

00:09:01 - Caitlin Kindred
You're welcome. So this light that I got is it kind of looks like a vest.

00:09:09 - Jenny GK
Oh, my God. Like laser tag?

00:09:12 - Caitlin Kindred
A little bit, yeah, a little bit.

00:09:13 - Jenny GK
Yeah.

00:09:15 - Caitlin Kindred
It's got, like a big plastic Led thing on the back that looks kind of like a teardrop. And then it has a reflective waist stretchy strap that clips together. And then there's, like, Led strings that go over my arms and around my back so it looks like a vest that's missing a bunch of material.

00:09:39 - Jenny GK
Let me tell you this. I am not an early riser during the summer, but you just inspired me to get up really early and go to your neighborhood and watch me walk. I need to see you with this thing.

00:09:49 - Caitlin Kindred
So my dad's like, you really need something to be safe. Right. And there's no way I'm getting hit with this. There is no way. And it has, like, different color modes, and it can flash. And I'm like, can it just be, like, one color?

00:10:04 - Jenny GK
I feel like you could wear it to the club at night.

00:10:06 - Caitlin Kindred
I could totally wear it to a.

00:10:08 - Jenny GK
Rave, and it would look I think you should walk with a speaker playing Sandstorm.

00:10:14 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. So it does come with, like, a clip on Bluetooth speaker. Because when you're walking by yourself in the dark, being able to hear your surroundings is probably a good thing.

00:10:24 - Jenny GK
I always get mad when I see cyclists with two headphones in.

00:10:28 - Caitlin Kindred
I get mad when I see that in the car. Take your air pods out of your ears in the car. Right. Or take one out. And I haven't subscribed to that yet because I don't like when I go by someone who's walking and they have their phone out and that you can just hear every single bit of what they're doing. I feel like that's not going to work for me.

00:10:46 - Jenny GK
Just take one out?

00:10:46 - Caitlin Kindred
Just take one out and be aware of your surroundings. Usually when it's super dark, I'll have only one in. I am considering that add on purchase, but because my dad sent me a link to this thing and it's not an Amazon company, but they sell through Amazon. So it was a really good deal on Prime Day. So I think I got it for, like, 50% off, which was really nice. So those are my three things. What do you have for Gems? Let's talk about those.

00:11:14 - Jenny GK
Okay. So you know that I'm a spiritual person. I don't really evangelize.

00:11:19 - Caitlin Kindred
No.

00:11:19 - Jenny GK
I don't push my faith on my kids. I hope that one day they will learn and make a good choice for them when they are ready. Whatever choice that's going to be.

00:11:28 - Caitlin Kindred
Sure.

00:11:30 - Jenny GK
A friend of mine many years ago told me that my only jobs are to bask in God's light and reflect it to others, and I kind of feel like that's a good explanation of faith for me.

00:11:41 - Caitlin Kindred
I like that.

00:11:42 - Jenny GK
That said, it's very important that you remember that when I'm telling this story. We took Kit to his first movie in theater. It was Indiana Jones. And in preparation for this, we watched the first Indiana Jones movies. I am not going to discuss the fourth one, the Crystal Skull thing, because that's not a real Indiana Jones movie. And I didn't show it to my children, but we watched all three of the first ones. Kit liked the movie. He did really well. It's kind of long, and I was proud of him for staying in a seat. He only needed one bathroom break. It was really great.

00:12:16 - Caitlin Kindred
Wow.

00:12:17 - Jenny GK
Fast forward to a few days later and the kids are playing with those water beads right? There's like a brand name of them, orbeez or whatever. But you put them in water and they grow. Abby put them in a big tupperware bin and they were going to put their feet in there and their hands. And at one point, Kit gets his whole body in there and takes a little bath in them. But before she would let him get in, she washed his feet so that they didn't get dog hair and nasty.

00:12:44 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:12:45 - Jenny GK
And I said, man, Kit, this is a real treat. Jesus washed his friend's feet before he saved the world. And Kit looks at me and says, from the Nazis. So we are joining a new church this weekend.

00:13:06 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes. The church of Harrison Ford. That's a great I was like, we.

00:13:11 - Jenny GK
Are taking you to church because Jesus did not save the world from the Nazis.

00:13:17 - Caitlin Kindred
Someone somewhere is. AHA, he sure did. But it was so good. Again, we both know that I'm not the most spiritual person, but if there is a Church of Harrison Ford, oh, please, I will sign up.

00:13:34 - Jenny GK
Yeah, no, definitely.

00:13:35 - Caitlin Kindred
Call me a disciple. I will go see those sermons every week. All right. Well, folks, this is your reminder that you need to delete your Google history upon your unaliving. When that happens, have a designated friend go in and delete all the things. So this is my request to you to be that person for me.

00:14:03 - Jenny GK
Absolutely.

00:14:04 - Caitlin Kindred
My son says to me the other day, mom, what happens to your computer when you die? Because I'm going to have to delete your profile before I use that. So there's that. My child is ready for me to kick the bucket so that he can have my computer.

00:14:26 - Jenny GK
This is like Abby seeing dogs when our bulldog was at the end of her life and be like, oh, that's.

00:14:31 - Caitlin Kindred
The kind of dog I want to get.

00:14:32 - Jenny GK
When Ramsey dies, we're like, yeah, you can't replace the dog, right?

00:14:36 - Caitlin Kindred
No, I used to do this to my like she'd be on the couch taking a nap, and I would go over to her and I would raise her eyelid as you do raise her eyelid, and I would go, mom, can I have this piece of jewelry when you die? She was like, there's nothing like a four year old going up to you while you're trying to take a nap while she's supposed to be napping. And you can tell she's been digging through your costume jewelry and then she's asking you if she can have a piece of it when you die by opening your eyeball, like opening up your eyelids for you. So, yeah, that's what's going on.

00:15:15 - Jenny GK
Nice.

00:15:15 - Caitlin Kindred
I feel like this is the right time to take a break. Yes.

00:15:18 - Jenny GK
Yeah.

00:15:19 - Caitlin Kindred
All right, we'll be right back. It hey, we're back.

00:15:31 - Jenny GK
Welcome back.

00:15:32 - Caitlin Kindred
Welcome back. So I am going to start this real talk session about how to perhaps, hopefully lighten the mental load for yourself with your partner by sharing a little text submission. So this comes from my friend E, and I'm not going to say this person's name because I don't want this person to get in trouble with their other friends. So E sends me a text, and it says, like, I have a rant for you, and I feel like you need to hear this. So here it goes. All names have been changed for her anonymity. There you go. So last week, Callum and I went to three summer water pool activities with friends. Callum is her husband. For two of those events, callum was the only husband in the water with all the moms. Meanwhile, all the kids were there in the water. The middle event had great participatory dads, but I needed to include this other one for reference. So then she says the first time it happened, at event number one, callum was frustrated because he also wanted to chat with all the guys more, but they were literally all it's like, not.

00:16:40 - Jenny GK
Even at the pool.

00:16:41 - Caitlin Kindred
Not even at the pool.

00:16:42 - Jenny GK
In the air conditioning.

00:16:43 - Caitlin Kindred
In the air conditioning.

00:16:44 - Jenny GK
Oh, bad.

00:16:45 - Caitlin Kindred
While their kids and their partners were.

00:16:47 - Jenny GK
All in the pool no. Okay, keep going.

00:16:50 - Caitlin Kindred
The second time it happened, she said we had to laugh with each other and go, oh, look what happened. Again, all of the guys are inside just chumming it up while all of their wives are in the pool with all the children, making sure everyone is safe and being played with. Not okay. Right. And she goes, okay, but for real. WTF. And so my answer to her was this feels like the whole mom is the parent, dad is the babysitter, which.

00:17:21 - Jenny GK
I think most dads would go against.

00:17:24 - Caitlin Kindred
That these days, or at least be offended by it.

00:17:27 - Jenny GK
Yeah. To be like, no, I'm not, babysitting.

00:17:29 - Caitlin Kindred
That's weird.

00:17:29 - Jenny GK
That was what they said in the.

00:17:32 - Caitlin Kindred
It'S not it got said in the in the it's still being said. But I also said it reminds me of those family dinners at a restaurant when the whole family gets together but mom doesn't get to eat her food when it's hot or when it's delivered because she's off, like, taking care of the baby or nursing in private or whatever. Meanwhile, dad is super chummy and two beers in and laughing it up with everyone, but she's just like alone in the corner. So it made me think about the number of times that I felt alone when I did have a baby. You go to nurse by yourself in a private room or you put the baby to bed when everybody's at your house and you're doing it alone. And I don't mean to sound like my husband didn't help because that's not at all the case. I feel very fortunate that Bryce is actually probably the one who does most of the day to day parenting. Honestly, he would come and sit with me and all those things, but it is very isolating and lonely at times when the kids get older and you're feeling like you're still the one on the hook all the time. That's hard. And my experience with sharing parenting duties doesn't really seem like it's the typical experience. My friend's text started just having gears turn in my head and I started looking for an actual practical way to have a conversation with your partner to lighten that mental load. And this goes for any relationship. Not every relationship has an equitable division of labor. So I think wives who are in heteronormative relationships often feel the most burden of that mental load, so I'm particularly speaking to them. But this can go for any relationship where one person feels like they're burdened with more of the emotional and physical labor of maintaining a family. Right.

00:19:27 - Jenny GK
I think you really did a good job of describing that by saying one person feels like they it might actually be that there's an even 50 50 split. But just having the conversation and realizing that your partner feels overwhelmed is really important.

00:19:41 - Caitlin Kindred
Right. And I've seen a lot of these different things on TikTok and other various places of women trying to make it known how much work they're doing in the household by doing things like going on strike where they leave everything where it is. Like they clean the house and then just watch as things get destroyed for the next four days or whatever. And they literally don't touch the dishes or they don't pick up the socks or anything like that and watching what happens. I also saw a story about a man whose wife died too young and he had a young child or maybe two young kids and he ended up hiring a team of four people to do all of the stuff that his wife had done. Four people for one person.

00:20:26 - Jenny GK
It's so interesting that you would say that, because when we were growing up and this was, like, common conversation, this is not like some secret of my family, but when we were growing up, my mom had tons of life insurance because my dad realized that having a stay at home mom sometimes she worked part time. But she never worked full time until we were all in junior high. But when we were young, huge amount of life insurance because he realized how valuable her time was and he was like, she cooks, she cleans, she takes care of the kids, she drives around town. We will need a lot of money to pay a person to do what she does.

00:21:10 - Caitlin Kindred
Right? And it's kind of shocking when you hear like four people to do the wife's, she did it all by herself and you're hiring four people to do that. That's completely nuts.

00:21:21 - Jenny GK
Even if you just paid someone 8 hours a day, right. You wouldn't need three people, right?

00:21:27 - Caitlin Kindred
It's insane. So I found this article. So the information here is very heavily sourced from an article on PureWow by Rachel. I don't know if it's because because it looks like buoy because we're in Texas, but it could be bowie and I've linked it in the Show Notes. It's all about taking a step towards fixing the issue here, which is not I need you to help me with it is actually much deeper than that. She notes that it's really easy to point fingers and say like, oh, he never does this, or I always am the one who does that, right? But in my experience, whenever I not tried, whenever I've kept score on anything like that in any relationship in my life with my husband or a friend or anything else, if I keep score, it just makes me angry, right? It just makes me resentful of that person. So if I'm sitting there, I had.

00:22:17 - Jenny GK
A pastor tell me resentment is the cancer of marriage.

00:22:20 - Caitlin Kindred
Absolutely agree. Completely. It's a cancer of any relationship. Right? If you are looking at your kid and you're going, I'm always picking up your socks, it will make you resent your child. It goes with any relationship. So just keeping score is so toxic and it's just not a good thing for you to do. So there's an author named Eve Rodsky who wrote Fair Play, a game changing solution for when you have too much to do and more life to live. I'm going to link that book in the Show Notes here as well, but she mentions that having an actual reflective conversation with your spouse about past experiences with domestic work can actually be a more helpful way to get to the root of the issue, which is, I always do this or he never does that. So basically the idea is that you have to get at the history that led you to adopt whatever domestic habits you have in the first place, because there's a really good chance that those habits were learned when you were a kid based on what you saw your parents doing. Right? Sure. So her example that she says everyone can probably relate to is grocery shopping. Let's just say that growing up, your partner's mother always managed the meal planning and the grocery shopping all the time. Doesn't it? Then follow that if you are the female partner in your relationship, that the male partner who always observed his mother taking care of all that would be more hands off?

00:23:53 - Jenny GK
Sure.

00:23:54 - Caitlin Kindred
Because that's what he grew up with. It's what he's used to, right?

00:23:57 - Jenny GK
Yeah. There's a reason why therapists ask about your family of origin, right?

00:24:02 - Caitlin Kindred
Because what you saw is going to feed into whatever experiences you have now and your behaviors now. So really what you need to do is find out what that history is. Because then you can breed empathy and understanding, right? And then from empathy and from understanding, you can then connect over something and actually get at the root of the problem. So when you have connection also, you can kind of start to break that resentment apart, right? If you already have it, you can kind of break it up, or maybe you can stop it from happening in the first place. So once you know where the behavior comes from, you can really address that. So maybe you have a conversation about the experiences that they had. You say, like, hey, tell me about the grocery shopping when you were a kid. Just ask that question. Who handled it? Who handled the cooking, who handled whatever, the cleaning, who did the laundry, whatever. And then you can actually understand why the behavior is what it is and then make a plan for next steps, right? You can then say like, okay, so I understand that your mom always handled all the grocery shopping and that's why you're more hands off. I, however, really need some assistance with the grocery shopping. So maybe that means that you can say, I will do the grocery shopping, but I can't also do the meal planning. So if you would like to tell me what it is that you would like to have for two days a week, either you can shop for those items or you put those items on the list and then I can go get them.

00:25:39 - Jenny GK
Yes.

00:25:40 - Caitlin Kindred
Or I'm fine to do the grocery shopping and the meal planning, but you need to do the cooking.

00:25:45 - Jenny GK
I hear Brene Brown clear is kind.

00:25:49 - Caitlin Kindred
Just making that expectation clear. But also you're acknowledging that experience at the same time. So you're not saying like, you don't do this, you don't do that. You're saying, I understand this is where you're coming from, and here's where I am also coming from, and I really need some help. And remember, no buts ands ands are always better. They're more inclusive, right?

00:26:08 - Jenny GK
We have a friend who used to say, if you say but, you are negating everything that you just said.

00:26:12 - Caitlin Kindred
Everything you've just said. Right. I love you, but is not helpful, right? No, I love you and I want this to be better. That's a very different statement than I love you, but I need this to be better. Right. So this obviously is not going to be the solution to the dad is the babysitter issue, but maybe you can have a conversation of when you were growing up and you were playing with your parents. Who was the one who arranged the games, who was the one who arranged the playdates, who was the one who made the dentist appointments? Tell me about those things, and then if I need to, I can make a list, or I can put an appointment in our shared family calendar that says, make the dentist appointment, and then that's going to be on you to do it or whatever it needs to be.

00:26:55 - Jenny GK
Right.

00:26:56 - Caitlin Kindred
I also need to acknowledge that this conversation, you may be too far gone in your relationship to even have this conversation. Right. Like, you might be so resentful and so done, which, if you've been the one who's handling everything all the time, it would be completely understandable for you to be like, I'm so done. I can't even have this conversation right now. However, if you feel like it's worth having the conversation, this might be the entry point into a more equitable shared division of household labor, okay. Whether it's kids or tasks. Right.

00:27:33 - Jenny GK
So I have a real life example that happened yesterday in our relationship. Okay.

00:27:39 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:27:39 - Jenny GK
So John and I have been together ten years, actually. We went on our first date ten years ago today.

00:27:47 - Caitlin Kindred
Oh, how cool. I love it. Congratulations.

00:27:50 - Jenny GK
So not really today the day that we're recording, but today the day that the episode comes out.

00:27:55 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:27:57 - Jenny GK
Anyway, he hates making phone calls, as.

00:28:01 - Caitlin Kindred
Every millennial does, right.

00:28:02 - Jenny GK
He's like a text email person identifying as Gen X. I don't care, right? I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll make the phone call, no problem. In fact, there's a lot of times where I skip the text, I skip the email, and I just go straight to the phone call.

00:28:16 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:28:16 - Jenny GK
Unless it's dealing with parents at school, at which point so it's an email because I want everything in writing.

00:28:21 - Caitlin Kindred
The paper trail.

00:28:22 - Jenny GK
Yeah. But in general, I don't have a problem calling businesses or whatever, but it irks me because he doesn't let me into his thinking about what questions he wants me to ask. And so it's like, will you call such and such and ask them about this and then also this, and then also this, and then also this? I'm like, no. So yesterday he actually went through and hammered out an email to me with all the questions he needed answers to. And let me tell you, it was so helpful to both of us because now I'm making the phone call that he doesn't want to make, and I don't feel like I'm not going to do well enough because I don't have the right information, and he doesn't feel like he. Has to stand next to me and whisper things for me to say.

00:29:12 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. I mean, it's almost like if he didn't give you that information, you'd be set up to fail. Right. You're not going to address the needs because you don't know what the needs actually are. You're just calling to do him a favor. Right.

00:29:26 - Jenny GK
And I have told him so many times, let me in, let me into your thinking. I need to know what you're thinking.

00:29:31 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes.

00:29:32 - Jenny GK
And so finally, we've just devised this situation. And again, it took ten years, but he sends me the email that he would have sent to the company, and then I use it to make a phone call.

00:29:42 - Caitlin Kindred
I love that there's empathy now, there's understanding now. And it's more fair. You're going to actually get the answers that you want. He's not going to be frustrated that you didn't get the answers and he's done the thinking for you, and all you have to do is regurgitate. That is perfect. I love it.

00:29:56 - Jenny GK
And like you said, like, every millennial does, doesn't want to make a phone call. I have empathy that he doesn't want to make a phone call. I even made a joke to him, did you only marry me because I'm not afraid of using the phone? And then, of course, he comes back with, well, that and your great fortune that you came with.

00:30:13 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah.

00:30:13 - Jenny GK
Remember when we got married, I was $50,000 in debt.

00:30:16 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. Right.

00:30:19 - Jenny GK
Actually, when we met, I was $50,000 in debt.

00:30:24 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. And he married me anyway, right. No.

00:30:26 - Jenny GK
And I had a fabulous credit score because I made the payment on my credit cards every single month.

00:30:31 - Caitlin Kindred
Every month on time.

00:30:32 - Jenny GK
Yes.

00:30:32 - Caitlin Kindred
I got it.

00:30:33 - Jenny GK
So I had a great credit score, but a giant pile of debt. Whatever, it's paid off now. So I really think that this conversation can be had, like you said, just about the grocery store or just about making the phone call or just about cleaning the bathroom. It doesn't need to be this whole blow up. I always do all of the things, and you don't do anything, and I'm so tired. And make it accessible to the partner that you are confronting. Even though it's not confrontational, you are bringing up something that could evoke hurt and could be challenging. Do it in a way that's, like, specific about one task.

00:31:11 - Caitlin Kindred
Yeah. It's less overwhelming that way for everyone involved. Right. It's like you're not nitpicking every single little thing. So you're not going to accuse them of being an overall crappy partner.

00:31:22 - Jenny GK
Exactly.

00:31:23 - Caitlin Kindred
And I get very heated about things, but that doesn't mean that I like to have the confrontation. Right. Like, I get very anxious about confrontation, and there's a lot of, like, oh, I can't handle it if this person doesn't like me sort of, sort of thing happening. And having those conversations with my partner is very scary and intimidating because I don't want to do anything that would jeopardize that relationship that I have because it's a very special one to me and I don't want to ruin it. So approaching it in this way is very special. It's not going to solve the problem. Right. However, it could be a baby step in the right direction. And so I'm going to put the article that Rachel Bowie wrote with all of the commentary from Eve Rodsky in there. I think it would be really helpful to read. I do feel like I've summarized it pretty well here, but it is definitely worth looking at for yourself if you'd like to see the other things that Rodsky had to say. And if you want to take a look at her book, it'll also be in the show notes.

00:32:19 - Jenny GK
Excellent. I want to address your friend.

00:32:21 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes.

00:32:23 - Jenny GK
I want to tell her that it is not the time to talk about the pool behavior after the party.

00:32:30 - Caitlin Kindred
No.

00:32:30 - Jenny GK
It is before the next one.

00:32:31 - Caitlin Kindred
Yes.

00:32:32 - Jenny GK
And say, hey, today we're going to.

00:32:35 - Caitlin Kindred
Go to the pool.

00:32:36 - Jenny GK
A bunch of friends are going to be there. Can you do me a favor? It kind of feels like the guys are inside and the girls are outside. Will you invite your friends to come outside and be in the pool with us? Even if you're not going to get in the water, can you at least help me keep eyes on the kids? I like it because, like you said, you need to understand where they're coming from. But reactionary is just anger and then there's nothing that your partner can do to fix it, so they're just put out, too.

00:33:01 - Caitlin Kindred
And I thought it was interesting also, and I told her as much. Her partner noticed it, too. Her partner was like, why are all the dads inside? I can't even talk to the dads because they're all inside. That's kind of sucky. And then he put it together like, oh, my gosh, all the dads are inside. All the moms are out here. And my friend's like, I mean, just for the hair and makeup alone, couldn't the guys come outside? Another reason why I love this woman, because she just says funny things on top of serious things. It's great. I said, kudos to you, you've got a good one, who noticed that this is an issue, right? And he's always been very attentive. I watched him one time stop a little boy from drinking bubbles, and the little boy was right next to me. Now, in fairness, I was monitoring my own little boy and trying to stop him from drinking bubbles, but it was pretty amazing. I had to say, you have a good one. This is so great that he noticed and that both of you noticed again when it happened a second time out of three parties, kind of a big deal. So hopefully a conversation like that for her would be pretty easy to have, right? Because it seems like they're both on the same page, at least about this one particular. Yeah.

00:34:14 - Jenny GK
In her case, it's, you have the power. Do you think you can get the guys to come out?

00:34:18 - Caitlin Kindred
You can empower the guys to come out, right? Like, say, I want to be out here with the kids because my wife needs help. Or I'm also the parent. I should be outside with my kids, which is probably the way he would or phrase it.

00:34:29 - Jenny GK
Use me as an excuse, set a timer, and when it goes off, say, okay, I got to go relieve the moms. Come on, guys. Yeah.

00:34:36 - Caitlin Kindred
I love the use me as an excuse. I tell people to do that with me all the time. Yeah.

00:34:40 - Jenny GK
And it's the same thing when your kids are older and you say, look, here's the text you send me when you need me to call and say, it's time to come.

00:34:51 - Caitlin Kindred
Kid with students. I would say things like that. Like, oh, if you feel like it's not a good idea for you to sit next to this person in class anymore because they're getting you in trouble, you can say, Caitlin Kindred pulled me aside and said, I can't sit next to you anymore, so I'm not going to sit next to you anymore because she's going to get mad. And then you blame it on me, and I'm fine being that person absolutely. Who you blame it on. So I think that that's a great way to go about it. I mean, it seems to work for the two of them. I feel like it could work for other couples, too, but I think it's also applicable to any relationship. It doesn't have to just be the dad mom dynamic. I think anyone who feels like they're overwhelmed and tired of doing the same tasks over and over again could probably have that conversation.

00:35:36 - Jenny GK
Yeah. And like my example yesterday, john and I split things pretty evenly. I feel like we have a good balance, but for one specific task. It drives me insane how he wants me to do it, and I figured out a way for me to do it. That's helpful.

00:35:53 - Caitlin Kindred
I love it. It's great. Works really well.

00:35:55 - Jenny GK
There you go.

00:35:56 - Caitlin Kindred
All right.

00:35:57 - Jenny GK
Gen X forever.

00:36:00 - Caitlin Kindred
I saw a tweet just a little while ago that said, millennials hate talking on the phone, but love podcasting.

00:36:07 - Jenny GK
Oh, that's funny.

00:36:08 - Caitlin Kindred
That's hilarious. But a phone conversation is basically just a podcast that doesn't get recorded, which is even funnier because that's how we started this show.

00:36:19 - Jenny GK
Well, and I think back to the very early episodes of MFM, and one of the girls was at a party, and they're like, oh, what are you up to? She just have a podcast, which I know is like, the most self indulgent.

00:36:32 - Caitlin Kindred
Thing you can do. But yeah, I like listening to myself talk. Okay, fine.

00:36:39 - Jenny GK
And I feel like what I have to say is really important. So I'm going to publicize it for everyone.

00:36:44 - Caitlin Kindred
The whole world needs to hear it.

00:36:46 - Jenny GK
I am getting a knock at the door. I have a four year old who has a very important message to give me. I think it involves a bouncy ball. So I'm going to close us. Don't forget to leave us a great review on Apple podcasts or anywhere else that you pod and make good choices.

00:37:03 - Caitlin Kindred
You can have this conversation. You can do it, I promise. And enjoy your prime day. Purchase is okay, bye.